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Old 30-11-2016, 14:04   #91
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Ask me about sailing in the Molokai (Kalohi?) channel! Or for that matter, the early morning ferry ride between Molokai and Maui, where half of the locals are puking their guts out. Strong winds and steep seas for sure. I will have to admit that this wasn't much fun. These experiences are ones we treasure after the fact. While they're happening, not so much.
Yea, some of the roughest and most exhilarating sailing you can ever have. For years they held the Pan Am Clipper Cup, then the Kenwood Cup off Oahu, and you could always count on a couple dis-mastings at least... Being on Oahu, I had to bash any time I went ESE, but was guaranteed a great ride back! Needless to say, it was the opposite going to Kauai...And all I had was a 23' New Zealand made sloop. Wet and wild. Today, I'd probably turn around and run back with my tail between my legs- I'm older and wiser, not invincible any more. BTW, Molokai channel is Kaiwi; Kalohi is between Molokai and Lanai. Narrow, but rough in strong trades. Ahh, the good days.......
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Old 30-11-2016, 14:29   #92
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

We sail a Nic 38 ketch up the PNW coast in the summer, so headwinds are the norm. Many times we've tacked up channels like Johnstone Strait in 25kts and had a blast - but we knew we'd be tucked in for the night at a calm anchorage. We also have a fully enclosed cockpit, so we're in shirtsleeves even when working the sheets. Happily, we often see other sail boats sailing in these conditions, only a few motoring.

At 25 kts AWS we sail at 45 degrees AWA and make a little over 6 kts (hull speed is 7.2), though speed through water greatly depends on the sea state and SOG depends on currents. In these protected waters, the waves can get steep but do not often become too large (or if they do you go hide). It is common to get plenty of water over the bow, some of it green.

Agree with Dockhead: "speed is life in beating to windward". If you can't keep up the speed to get through the waves, you are going nowhere. So, you need power.

Our sails are 5 years old, and holding up very well. They made a *huge* difference to our ability to point vs the bags we had. And over the years we have learned to trim them properly (no racing background). The mizzen is not used.

The trick for us is to use weatherhelm as an indicator of sail trim. If the helmsman (eg my wife) is fighting the wheel, the sails are wrong and we are not having a good time (by definition). Get them trimmed right, and the boat picks up her skirts and just powers along. Tiny changes in the sheets and blocks can make all the difference.

Our genoa is a 135% radial cut, and we put 4 or more wraps on the roller - it holds its shape well enough. For offshore, we just bought a 105% working jib from Scott Rush in Seattle (be sure to talk to him about new sails). It's clearly better beating than the reefed genoa. We put one or two reefs in the main, and lose very little speed.

Another important thing in channels, is tactics. Which side of the channel matters, and how you approach curves in the channel matters. Waves, winds and currents all vary.

If you like sailing, not motoring, and you are considering sailing north from Puget Sound towards Alaska, you might take a look at my wife's book. It's a reference book to the winds and tides in the channels, and how to use them. See my signature....
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Why do so many sailors motor most of the way from Seattle to Alaska? Because they don't have this reference book: "Taken By the Wind: the Northwest Coast". Find it on Amazon.
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Old 30-11-2016, 15:01   #93
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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We sail a Nic 38 ketch up the PNW coast in the summer, so headwinds are the norm. Many times we've tacked up channels like Johnstone Strait in 25kts and had a blast ... <> Happily, we often see other sail boats sailing in these conditions, only a few motoring.

...
If you like sailing, not motoring, and you are considering sailing north from Puget Sound towards Alaska, you might take a look at my wife's book. It's a reference book to the winds and tides in the channels, and how to use them. See my signature....
Wow, that book sounds like just my thing. Looks like it was just recently published - I wish it were available before this past summer's cruise where we did parts of exactly what the book talks about (sailed up to about Cape Caution, using mostly wind). We saw only one boat sailing upwind in Johnstone Strait (a racing trimaran). Maybe you go at different times of year. Anyway, would love to see more because then I could learn from what they're doing.

I'm very tempted to pick up the book. I usually only buy Kindle books though. Maybe going on the Christmas list.
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Old 30-11-2016, 15:26   #94
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Wow, that book sounds like just my thing. Looks like it was just recently published - I wish it were available before this past summer's cruise... .
We started out as newbies and learned a bit more each time we went. We read the standard guide books and they say things like you can't round Cape Caution if the wave reports at West Sea Otter are more than 1m. But those books are written mostly by power boaters and they avoid wind like the plague! Once we realized that, our whole sailing lifestyle changed for the better.

My wife's an engineer and she set about studying the problem - 7 years and 10k nm later, she finished it. Yes, the book is brand new. But it's the book we wish we'd had back then! She meant it to be a practical reference for use underway as well as while planning.

She's considering Kindle, but the formatting will be hard (lots of tables, charts, wind roses, etc).

Van
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Why do so many sailors motor most of the way from Seattle to Alaska? Because they don't have this reference book: "Taken By the Wind: the Northwest Coast". Find it on Amazon.
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Old 30-11-2016, 15:37   #95
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

I enjoy it, within reason. It really depends on the sea state as opposed to the wind strength. Fortunately, my boat goes to weather pretty comfortably and I find it fun and satisfying so long as it's not day in and day out, which gets tiring, mostly because everything down below can get complicated when you're on your ear.

That said, doing the same in a racing sled can be truly miserable...pounding, launching off waves and wet.
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Old 30-11-2016, 16:26   #96
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Cats have their strong points but sailing upwind is not one of them.
Kev I would reply with a rational response but why bother mate ive seen your efforts on the anchoring thread a month back. Big mouth and small ears
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Old 30-11-2016, 16:31   #97
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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BTW, Molokai channel is Kaiwi; Kalohi is between Molokai and Lanai. Narrow, but rough in strong trades. Ahh, the good days.......
The pounding we got aboard VALIS was when we were sailing from Lanai to Molokai, leaving the west end of Lanai to starboard and aiming for Kaunakakai. When we got there we ended up anchoring and not even going ashore because the wind was too strong for me to want to leave the boat unattended on a just-set anchor. We cooked dinner aboard and then sailed for Honolulu.
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Old 30-11-2016, 16:31   #98
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Originally Posted by Suijin View Post
I enjoy it, within reason. It really depends on the sea state as opposed to the wind strength. Fortunately, my boat goes to weather pretty comfortably and I find it fun and satisfying so long as it's not day in and day out, which gets tiring, mostly because everything down below can get complicated when you're on your ear.

That said, doing the same in a racing sled can be truly miserable...pounding, launching off waves and wet.
Having fun sailing has nothing to do with reason and a racing sled is the right place to have fun sailing upwind, I mean if you like that kind of fun
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Old 30-11-2016, 16:37   #99
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Kev I would reply with a rational response but why bother mate ive seen your efforts on the anchoring thread a month back. Big mouth and small ears
Thanks for sparing us.
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Old 30-11-2016, 16:49   #100
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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The genoa in particular. Everyone knows roller furling sails don't reef well. Yet most cruisers will reef their roller furlers simply because it's much much easier. But when we reef our 135% genoa to about 90%, it's pretty baggy. I move the sheet leads all the way forward in the track, but maybe that's not enough.
I'm going to take a guess that your boat was previously used in a little racing?...with that size genoa for the boat's age.

Is that genoa in decent condition that you might consider modifying it? I'm talking about adding a luff pad to it so it reefs to a flatter shape.
for instance...Foam Luff


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Then what happens if I'm not super careful with helming, we get what I'd call a luff and fill - you luff up a couple degrees too much, then a gust to 22 comes or you steer back down 5 degrees, and *boom*, the genoa fills with a loud smack. I don't like this. Is it normal to have an occasional luff and fill when upwind in 20 or is there something you do to avoid it? Autopilot wouldn't avoid it, we're also steering to waves.
With a flatter genoa you could improve this situation. In addition to the luff pad I would suggest you tighten up your backstay to help cut down on excessive slack in your forestay,...another thing that adds excessive belly in your genoa.

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- Our hank-on staysail on the solent stay works better than a reefed genoa for upwind in 20-25, but it's a ton more work to rig. Tough to justify when you're only sailing upwind 8 miles. I feel like I shouldn't have to use a staysail for 17-20 with gusts to 22 though. Am I wrong?
If its a decent size staysail, in those conditions you could likely utilize it along with no genoa.

Quote:
- Difficulty pointing. In 5-15 kts we can sail to 40-45 degrees, but in 20 kts that goes to 60-70 degrees. Partly due to wave action slowing the boat. But I assume wave action is a given in 20 (we always have some current).
Sounds like its a combo of your rig out of tune, along with baggie sails (either from condition of sails, or how they are rigged). So you are sailing too conservative so as to be easy on the vessel, and your performance is suffering accordingly. There are times you need to 'drive' the boat, particularly to windward.

Quote:
- A new genoa is expensive. If that's the fix, well, so be it (I'll start saving), but if not it's an expensive mistake to make. I've heard it said that *no* sails roller reef well. So how do I know a brand new genoa reefed to 90% would help?

Basically it's sounding like it all comes down to the foresail. Most cruisers have a roller furling genoa. So any solution seems like it must involve working with that.
I would start out with a much less expensive trial,...add a luff pad and tighten up the forestay via backstay adjustment. Old time sailmakers can also recut that genoa. (modern guys all want to sell you the latest/greatess)
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Old 30-11-2016, 17:01   #101
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Thank you for the kind words, UNCIVILIZED, but really, the OP, based on his questions, should seek out at least one independent sailmaker and get himself a quick course (as it were) in what is possible relative to his particular boat. A major loft, like North, will steer him towards particular products, but a small sailmaker, who needs return business, will be motivated to sell him what will work best for his boat. A benefit to both the OP and the sailmaker, but remember, guys, "The laborer is worthy of his hire!" And a smile, and if you're so inclined, coffee and cookies, too.

Ann
I just started reading thru this subject thread when i came upon Tessellate's posting. I was subsequently surprised that he got a number of direct responses to his problem rather than just boast as to windward sailing.

And Ann I think you and I are on the same page about what service he might get from the majors (sailmakers) vs the older guys.
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Old 30-11-2016, 17:14   #102
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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Sailing fun and comfort to me are mostly related to the sea state... you can trim and steer to deal with the wind, but dealing with the waves is harder.


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Old 30-11-2016, 17:35   #103
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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I think fun is influenced by the length of time going to windward. Most long term cruisers would not be long term cruisers if most of their sailing were to windward. It is just too exhausting.

For me, all things being equal the biggest variables are wave height and period. At the opposite ends of the spectrum I typically employee different strategies although both require constant concentration at the helm for maximum performance.

First, like most people, I try to get the sails as flat as possible. In heavier winds I prefer the sails to be trimmed to have as neutral helm as possible. I don't like weather helm because of the propensity to round up though in lighter conditions I prefer a little weather helm just for feel. I typically try to get the boom centred and the traveller as close to centre as I can. My ultimate goal is to sail off the back edge of the main.

In short period steep waves I steer a short inverted and truncated question mark type of curve in order to maintain speed to get through the wave. So its punch through the wave, fall off a bit to gain speed and surf. Then just before the next wave head up and repeat. Again it takes feel and concentration.

At the other end of the spectrum I will try to pinch to where I will slow the boat down slightly and sail flatter. In the right conditions I have found by pointing higher and having less leeway I end up going faster to my destination. Again this takes concentration and what I usually do then is focus at maintaining a constant speed and ensuring the headsail doesn't collapse with the emphases being on the headsail. Depending on the wave size I am coming into, I sometimes fall off to get a higher speed to get through the wave. But I will head up just before the wave and then fall off to get to my target speed and then start to pinch while maintaining that speed.

When tacking I slow down the turn through the wind. This is to give more time to get the sail in on the other side. This saves time in the end because you spend more time pointing higher towards the destination and when the tack is completed the sail should already be trimmed or nearly so.

This has been my experience others will likely have different views.
When reading your description I concur and attempt to do what you described, thanks for spelling it out so well. I learned from crewing on races for a few years while sailing on MWR Marina boats when stationed in Long Beach, Ca... 1986 thru 1990, We had a blast racing a McGregor 65 from Newport to Ensenada and Oakland to Catalina, as well as many series of bouy races in Long Beach on coronado 15's and Wednesday night Catalina 27 races several others as well... it all helps, but you were able to describe it very well.Thanks... I've since cruised the Pensacola bay for years on a Morgan Outisland 41 till Ivan sunke her, then raced our own Catlina 22' (for sail) and S2 9.2A as well as cruised both since 2006, 2013 respectively. Aspirations of more with the S2 soon.
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Old 30-11-2016, 17:41   #104
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I would go out of Annapolis MD on the Chesapeake Bay looking for racing monohulls I could sneak up on and pass to windward.

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Old 30-11-2016, 17:50   #105
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Re: Can sailing upwind in 20 knots be fun?

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The pounding we got aboard VALIS was when we were sailing from Lanai to Molokai, leaving the west end of Lanai to starboard and aiming for Kaunakakai. When we got there we ended up anchoring and not even going ashore because the wind was too strong for me to want to leave the boat unattended on a just-set anchor. We cooked dinner aboard and then sailed for Honolulu.
Yea Paul if it was strong trades you'd have gotten pretty beat up with that crossing, BUT the ride to Honolulu was probably an exciting, wild one!! Hopefully you had a good time... If I had a rough crossing from Oahu, I'd stop in Hale O Lono harbor, on the SW end of the island just to rest. Nothing there, just calm protected water and dust, but welcoming after the crossing. Don't know what's there now...
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