Chesapeake Bay-Strong Wind, Steep Waves

[thomm225]

After again seeing the steep and closely spaced waves the bay can churn up with Northerly winds (and opposing strong tide) only nearing 30 knots, the tactics available to deal with them are quite small.

To lay a hull or heave too in those conditions means you and your boat are going to take a terrible beating.

The waves are steep and breaking at 7' or so and once one passes many times there's another right behind it. Then as you transition over deep water back to shallow (and vice versa) you have different wave patterns (and heights) as well as ships that can make you alter course even though you really don't want to because it exposes you to the oncoming waves

Ocean waves can get much higher but you have spacing, not so in the bay.

I wonder if anyone here has been stuck in the lower bay in a disabled vessel and had to "ride out the weather."

I came across the lower bay on Saturday in these conditions taking 3 waves over the side (before I was able to turn DDW. I had to avoid getting too close to the bridge) at which time I put in the hatch boards and got my harness, tether, and PFD on.

I got soaked with one of the waves and an end eye on my old dodger frame got broken somehow during this crossing.

The boat did great, but if something had broken I would have been in trouble.

Also, I wonder how much speed you need to keep up for a small boat not to take waves over the stern?

I had to much mainsail up so had to fight the tiller but that did give me plenty of speed. Forecast was for 15-20 knots.

At the end of the trip across, there was the super strong tide and to miss the entrance to Little Creek would have been a real problem because I'm not sure if I could have sailed against the wind and waves without damaging the boat in some way. I have a 19.75' LWL.

That same strong incoming tide was oppose to the Northerly wind and waves causing things to be a bit worse as I was headed South at the upper end of the lower bay. There were some huge waves in that area mid way across

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by thomm225

After again seeing the steep and closely spaced waves the bay can churn up with Northerly winds (and opposing strong tide) only nearing 30 knots, the tactics available to deal with them are quite small.

To lay a hull or heave too in those conditions means you and your boat are going to take a terrible beating.

The waves are steep and breaking at 7' or so and once one passes many times there's another right behind it. Then as you transition over deep water back to shallow (and vice versa) you have different wave patterns (and heights) as well as ships that can make you alter course even though you really don't want to because it exposes you to the oncoming waves

Ocean waves can get much higher but you have spacing, not so in the bay.

I wonder if anyone here has been stuck in the lower bay in a disabled vessel and had to "ride out the weather."

I came across the lower bay on Saturday in these conditions taking 3 waves over the side (before I was able to turn DDW. I had to avoid getting too close to the bridge) at which time I put in the hatch boards and got my harness, tether, and PFD on.

I got soaked with one of the waves and an end eye on my old dodger frame got broken somehow during this crossing.

The boat did great, but if something had broken I would have been in trouble.

Also, I wonder how much speed you need to keep up for a small boat not to take waves over the stern?

I had to much mainsail up so had to fight the tiller but that did give me plenty of speed. Forecast was for 15-20 knots.

At the end of the trip across, there was the super strong tide and to miss the entrance to Little Creek would have been a real problem because I'm not sure if I could have sailed against the wind and waves without damaging the boat in some way. I have a 19.75' LWL.

That same strong incoming tide was oppose to the Northerly wind and waves causing things to be a bit worse as I was headed South at the upper end of the lower bay. There were some huge waves in that area mid way across

Welcome to the Chesapeake! Fortunately you're generally never far from a nice calm, at least semi-protected bay and you don't have to worry about any of the narrow entrances you have to navigate through on the Atlantic side which have those same effects you mentioned in spades.

My answer is in the firm of a question, did you have to go to Little Creek? Just keep on going East and you're in the Elizabeth River in an hour. Or, if you were coming from the North you could have taken a right on entering the Bay and gone to Cape Charles or Kiptipeke or even the lee of Fisherman's Island depending on the seas and your draft. And if you're truly disabled and it's life and death, there's a Coast Guard small boat station pretty close to you wherever you are and the H-60s from Elizabeth City can be to you in 30 minutes or less and aren't bothered in the least by 7' seas.

BTW, it's exceedingly rare to see sustained 7' seas on the Chesapeake given the fetch, water depth, and physics. The entrance may be the only place that can happen in anything short of a major storm. You're completely right that the short period, steep waves are very unlike the ocean and can be miserable, but the saving grace is that there's also a limit to how tall water can get at that short a frequency.

[tkeithlu]

Hmmm. Sounds like you got a nasty fit between LWL and wave length. That could be educational. I've followed your descriptions because your experiences with the bay don't match mine, 55 years ago I admit. The difference may be that my experience was in a 38' LWL sloop. If you want to see what happens when two wave sources meet in the ocean, try off Hatteras where the northern and Gulf Stream currents meet.

I doubt that you can out-run a wave. Hove to or into them, life is going to depend on whether the bow comes up before the next wave hits, or you can span two. Diving into them could be very tiring. Ditto for getting pooped - if the stern doesn't come up, you're going to get wet. Time rising depends on things like ballast distribution.

What does all this mean? I think you've found some conditions under which your particular boat is challenged, and you have dealt with those conditions very well. You have the necessary skill and took the right precautions when conditions deteriorated. Your boat came through OK. You can handle it. What a ride!

You may want to think about headlands to hide behind under these conditions, such as the river entrances to your west.

[Chotu]

Experienced this type of uncomfortable shallow water, infinite fetch chop in the Great Lakes and can understand how so many boats have been lost there.

I’ve definitely been beat up in the Chesapeake too. I recall losing my nav computer in the Chesapeake. It went flying, plummeted from the helm down into the hull of a catamaran and was destroyed.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by tkeithlu

Hmmm. Sounds like you got a nasty fit between LWL and wave length. That could be educational. I've followed your descriptions because your experiences with the bay don't match mine, 55 years ago I admit. The difference may be that my experience was in a 38' LWL sloop. If you want to see what happens when two wave sources meet in the ocean, try off Hatteras where the northern and Gulf Stream currents meet.

I doubt that you can out-run a wave. Hove to or into them, life is going to depend on whether the bow comes up before the next wave hits, or you can span two. Diving into them could be very tiring. Ditto for getting pooped - if the stern doesn't come up, you're going to get wet. Time rising depends on things like ballast distribution.

What does all this mean? I think you've found some conditions under which your particular boat is challenged, and you have dealt with those conditions very well. You have the necessary skill and took the right precautions when conditions deteriorated. Your boat came through OK. You can handle it. What a ride!

You may want to think about headlands to hide behind under these conditions, such as the river entrances to your west.

When I say out run a wave, I mean have enough speed so that it breaks just aft of your stern like they were doing on Saturday.

If I had just a small bit of jib up, I believe I would have taken a few waves over the stern.

If I had turned into them, I suspect the bow would have gone under many many times as the waves came along.

As far as headlands to hide behind, I sailed away from a very nice calm spot at Kiptopeke. I even sailed up close to the beach where it was flat calm to prep the boat for my crossing..I had planned to be back by mid day Saturday. As it was, I made it by 10:30 am

It was flat calm there. so I reefed, raised and secured the outboard, and put everything away.

Forecast was for small craft advisories winds 15-20. I've been in 28 knots coming down the bay but this was different maybe due to the strong incoming tide.

Check how smooth this ride was a few months ago and winds gusting to 29 knots. (sailing with partial jib only) This was off the York River not 15 miles South of that near the Northern Shipping channel mid bay. Autopilot doing the steering since I just had jib up which relieved pressure on the rudder.

I'm not pushing much water at all either as compared to Saturday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agtdrmAqojs

[dcstrng]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I came across the lower bay on Saturday in these conditions taking 3 waves over the side (before I was able to turn DDW. I had to avoid getting too close to the bridge) at which time I put in the hatch boards and got my harness, tether, and PFD on...


The boat did great, but if something had broken I would have been in trouble.

Also, I wonder how much speed you need to keep up for a small boat not to take waves over the stern.

I had to much mainsail up...

Yep the Bay can surprise ya... not sure there is a perfect solution, but ran into that in mid-Bay 15 years ago or so in our B24... probably 6 foot or less waves, but wind out of the north (28-29kts the buoy data showed) and an incoming tide -- compounded by a skipper who had been on the tiller way to long and awake for around 30 hours...

Was heading south trying to make the mouth of the Potomac about 3AM and had a brain-cramp, accidental gybe with full main up and stern breaking waves -- laid the deck and cabin side in the water, and was sure the elderly rig was going to carry away, but let the sheets run and everything held (Guardian Angels) other that totally rearranging the cabin... May not compare with open ocean, but I'd guess many Bay skippers have one of those "oops stories" somewhere, and a mental note not to get caught again...

But the B24 was a stout little vessel -- many days I wish I had her back...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Welcome to the Chesapeake! Fortunately you're generally never far from a nice calm, at least semi-protected bay and you don't have to worry about any of the narrow entrances you have to navigate through on the Atlantic side which have those same effects you mentioned in spades.

My answer is in the firm of a question, did you have to go to Little Creek? Just keep on going East and you're in the Elizabeth River in an hour. Or, if you were coming from the North you could have taken a right on entering the Bay and gone to Cape Charles or Kiptipeke or even the lee of Fisherman's Island depending on the seas and your draft. And if you're truly disabled and it's life and death, there's a Coast Guard small boat station pretty close to you wherever you are and the H-60s from Elizabeth City can be to you in 30 minutes or less and aren't bothered in the least by 7' seas.

BTW, it's exceedingly rare to see sustained 7' seas on the Chesapeake given the fetch, water depth, and physics. The entrance may be the only place that can happen in anything short of a major storm. You're completely right that the short period, steep waves are very unlike the ocean and can be miserable, but the saving grace is that there's also a limit to how tall water can get at that short a frequency.

Little Creek was my destination. I sailed away from my nice calm Kiptopeke Anchorage as planned to cross to my home creek, Little Creek.

I had planned this since mid week. Wind forecast the entire time had been around 20 knots but I figured 22-25 knots.

I think the difference was the strong incoming tide.

The Chesapeake Bay is home for me. I first drove a boat on it in the early 60's as a 6-7 years old. Parents and friends were in the back drinking beer as I steered to Silver Beach at idle.

So on Saturday, the boat speed was higher than normal for the conditions and the waves breaking a lot. The video was during a calmer period where I had time to take a couple boards off the hatch and grab the camera for a bit then replace the boards etc

The water the boat is pushing explains the wind and wave power better than the waves you see in these 54 seconds

Plus the wind was whistling through the rigging the entire time and that was new

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nXfjcCuiPk

[rslifkin]

Seas always look calmer in videos for some reason. And when it's steep, short period crap (and even worse if it's a bit confused after a wind shift), it's amazing just how nasty it can feel without the waves being all that big.

[thomm225]

So when I did have the jib up before I was able to get it down, it was all over the place as I headed down wind somewhat due to the main and due to the fact that I had to steer DDW for a decent ride.

So I guess if I had another set (or two) of reef points on the main maybe the tiller pilot could have handled the steering which would have allowed me to do other things like maintain order on the boat as things got knocked loose etc and be able to see the waves better as they came in

Plus I wouldn't have gotten as worn down. I ran out of water and had no food available so if I had to go another few hours it wouldn't have been fun.

As it was I was having a beer (or 3) at the dock at 11:30 am! A bit early for that sort of thing, but I promised myself a reward if I got across without any real problems.

Another alternative for a smoother ride is to buy the Westsail 32 my friend Jason has for sale.

[thomm225]

Buoy data mid bay (Rappahannock Light) shows gusts to 33-34 knots on Saturday AM so that combined with the opposing tide is probably what generated some of those big waves I encountered along the way across.

It was pretty amazing to see some of them. I had seen them that size before but I was usually driving across the CBBT. (at 9' Shoal)

Like Assateague Beach waves.

[Greg Mason]

Way up here on the west coast, we have a similar issue with Georgia Strait. Wind over tide create the conditions you describe. I have heard an explanation for the condition phrased as, 6' at 6 seconds. Every 6 seconds, a 6' wave comes at you, and steep, because the tide is going the other way. We need to have an alternative, even if it means returning to safe water.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Little Creek was my destination. I sailed away from my nice calm Kiptopeke Anchorage as planned to cross to my home creek, Little Creek.

I had planned this since mid week. Wind forecast the entire time had been around 20 knots but I figured 22-25 knots.

I think the difference was the strong incoming tide.

The Chesapeake Bay is home for me. I first drove a boat on it in the early 60's as a 6-7 years old. Parents and friends were in the back drinking beer as I steered to Silver Beach at idle.

So on Saturday, the boat speed was higher than normal for the conditions and the waves breaking a lot. The video was during a calmer period where I had time to take a couple boards off the hatch and grab the camera for a bit then replace the boards etc

The water the boat is pushing explains the wind and wave power better than the waves you see in these 54 seconds

Plus the wind was whistling through the rigging the entire time and that was new

My point was really to be wary of "get-home-itis" as we called it in the aviation world. It's a very real phenomenon that they drill into us in aviation safety but applies equally to boating. Your destination was Little Creek, but you didn't actually have to arrive in Little Creek. At the point you realized it might be a tough entrance to make it wouldn't have been that big a deal to divert to Norfolk from a seamanship perspective, even though I don't doubt it would be mighty inconvenient from the perspective of being a pain to find a mooring, get transportation, and later move the boat back to where you really wanted it. The caution is not to let that impact your decision making when safety is on the line.

We often fixate on our intended destination and wait until too late to either bail out to an alternate destination that's going to be inconvenient for us or return to our starting point when we realize the weather isn't what was forecast. I rescued many a boater in that situation in my time flying in the Coast Guard. It's kind of like reefing, at the point you're starting to wonder if you might actually make it to your destination you should already have diverted to your alternate or other safe harbor or returned. And yes, I've been guilty of get-home-itis myself, just this year leaving Wachapreague where I encountered much the same as you described and should have just turned around and waited until the next day despite the minor inconvenience in my plans.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

My point was really to be wary of "get-home-itis" as we called it in the aviation world. It's a very real phenomenon that they drill into us in aviation safety but applies equally to boating. Your destination was Little Creek, but you didn't actually have to arrive in Little Creek. At the point you realized it might be a tough entrance to make it wouldn't have been that big a deal to divert to Norfolk from a seamanship perspective, even though I don't doubt it would be mighty inconvenient from the perspective of being a pain to find a mooring, get transportation, and later move the boat back to where you really wanted it. The caution is not to let that impact your decision making when safety is on the line.

We often fixate on our intended destination and wait until too late to either bail out to an alternate destination that's going to be inconvenient for us or return to our starting point when we realize the weather isn't what was forecast. I rescued many a boater in that situation in my time flying in the Coast Guard. It's kind of like reefing, at the point you're starting to wonder if you might actually make it to your destination you should already have diverted to your alternate or other safe harbor or returned. And yes, I've been guilty of get-home-itis myself, just this year leaving Wachapreague where I encountered much the same as you described and should have just turned around and waited until the next day despite the minor inconvenience in my plans.

Good points all.

I easily could have diverted to Willoughby Bay maybe for total protection from the NW-NE winds and no mooring would have been necessary, but I would have needed to decide that pretty early on. At that time though, the best heading was toward Little Creek for DDW. (or close to it)

Also, this is my regular crossing so I had all my marks starting to line up and was anticipating my "I made in home beer."

Ridiculous as that might seem to someone used to being on their boat.

I had been on the boat 3 days which means little sleep etc.........but some good views. Orion is up at around 3-3:30 am up here now.

I actually didn't think about the tide until I was close to Little Creek and was seeing how it was pushing me West.

The tide runs almost perpendicular to the Little Creek entrance especially when it's rippin' like it was on Saturday.

I came in on the far Port (Eastern) side and entered sideways as usual on days like that. Bow pointing more into the tide.

Wind was still quite strong for 3/4th the way up during which time I had to get the sail down and outboard down and started at some point. ( and reconnect the autopilot which I had to get rid of during the crossing)

I think the constant whistling in the rigging during the crossing along with the waves that broke over the side early on (and those that were breaking at the stern later) got my attention pretty quickly that this crossing was different than other "big wind" crossings I'd made on the Bay.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Wi...!4d-76.2855634

[KenKo]

I don't know if this would work on following waves, but an old canoe/kayak method saved my butt on Lake Erie once when we had short steep waves coming from dead ahead. We "quartered" the waves, which meant turning to take them at an angle, while being careful to not turn so far that the waves turned us broadside. It essentially reduces the steepness of the wave on the ride up as well as the ride down the wave and can be quite effective.

[rslifkin]

A bit of an angle can make things more comfortable, yes. If nothing else, it slightly increases the time between wave encounters.