Collision avoidance at night

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Instances that come to mind.

J/22 fleet (draws 4') sailing across a narrow 8' channel in 6+' boat. The ones passing in front of me seemed expect me to stop (or turn and run aground) and the ones passing behind seemed to expect me to keep going. Five blasts and I kept going, wrote down sail numbers, and called in a protest. Three DSQs from that.

Following a racing fleet up Chesapeake Bay. They're all fully crewed flying chutes. I was singlehanded with my chute up. Lots of room. They round a navigation mark being used as a racing mark and spread out across the Bay (tactics based on where the wind was, tidal current choices). I'm windward boat and on starboard tack and have nowhere to go. Five blasts at least three times. Protested and two DSQs (I was pretty busy and didn't get a chance to write down all the sail numbers). Major disruption in the sailing club as it changed the rankings for the entire season.

Feeder race for the Solomons Screwpile Races which I was sailing down to watch. Just one boat pulling the "we're racing" card. Again, singlehanded. They're getting so close they can hear a level voice. I had commercial traffic I'd already negotiated with and was not disposed to change that when I was stand-on. "We're racing" led to five blasts and another DSQ.

I don't consider that I'm pushing. I am refusing to be bullied by racers, despite 30 years of racing myself. I will give a wide berth when I can, partly from politeness and partly from the expectations that they'll do something stupid.

In fairness, the opposite applies. I've taken the stern of another cruising boat rather closely by their lights that upset them. Sometimes I run into them later and we have a talk that usually resolves with adult beverages.

If they mess with you like that in a narrow channel I think that's worth making a stink about. I'm sure I would do the same. That's just dangerous.



On the other hand, when there's room to stay out of their way, I always do so. If "I'm racing" means -- "could you kindly not make me maneuvre, because that would really help me out", I'm perfectly happy to oblige. If it means "run aground and die for all I care", then obviously not.


But why are racers so often so oblivious to the Rules? Last summer I was sailing into Tallinn Bay after a single handed crossing of the Gulf of Finland, and there was a cross-Gulf race on. Some guy from my own yacht club hove to do a sail change, right in the middle of the TSS, going the wrong way up it, with a 24 knots big ferry steaming into the bay down this very TSS. I couldn't believe it! I called him on the VHF, called and called, finally got his attention via a DSC call, asked him if he say the ferry bearing down on him, and advised him he'd better bugger out of there. Advised him that he should not be in that piece of water at all -- can't he see the TSS on his chart? The one he's being going the wrong way up? Do you know what a TSS is? He did not seem to understand what I was even talking about. He carried on with his sail change, got 5 blasts, and scurried out of the way with less than a cable. Jesus. I meant to find him at the club, or maybe write up the incident without naming names, for the club newsletter, but then never got around to it.

[SVHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I agree that there are few boats carrying all the necessary lights for anything unusual including CBD Rule 28 allows three vertical red lights without mandating them. Just to make things interesting, US Inland Rules don't include Rule 28 - in US waters inside the COLREGS demarcation line CBD doesn't exist. *sigh*

Regardless, in my opinion, solid communication is always in order in the real world in the case of doubt by any party. As you say: VHF. That of course goes well beyond discerning the intent of a multiple choice exam question.

A boat under sail can NEVER be a CBD vessel, anywhere...

Rule 3(h) The term “vessel constrained by her draft” means a power-driven vessel which, because of her draft in relation to the available depth and width of navigable water is severely restricted in her ability to deviate from the course she is following.

I sailed 5 days a week in San Francisco Bay for 8 years, where races are a lot more common than they are in the Chesapeake, and NEVER ONCE felt the need to give a racing boat 5 blasts, or call any of them on the VHF either.

Some people just need to take a chill pill. The navigation rules come into play whenever there is a "risk of collision." If I get to that point, I consider that I have already done something wrong. I prefer to alter course BEFORE I am obligated to be the standon vessel. Less stress and more fun all round. I do however not get that rush of righteous indignation that some people seem to need.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

A boat under sail can NEVER be a CBD vessel, anywhere...


......

Rule 3(h) only applies in international waters.
On US Inland waters it does not apply. I have not knowledge whether it would apply in other nations’ internal waters.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

A boat under sail can NEVER be a CBD vessel, anywhere...

Please read the context. I didn't suggest that it did. I was responding to a post the implied the three reds are a requirement and I pointed out that they are an option.

A sailboat under power is a power-driven vessel.

The likelihood of anyone recognizing CBD lights or shape where a recreational boat (outside of the US where the concept doesn't exist) might understand approaches zero. Running a deep boat up the Neuse River for example there is no point in flipping the switches.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Rule 3(h) only applies in international waters.
On US Inland waters it does not apply. I have not knowledge whether it would apply in other nations’ internal waters.

Canada has an interesting modification to CBD

Vessels Constrained by their Draught — Canadian Modification
(b)
Notwithstanding paragraph (a), in the Canadian waters of a roadstead, harbour, river, lake or inland waterway, no vessel shall exhibit three all-round red lights in a vertical line or a cylinder.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by SVHarmonie

>
>>>>

I sailed 5 days a week in San Francisco Bay for 8 years, where races are a lot more common than they are in the Chesapeake, and NEVER ONCE felt the need to give a racing boat 5 blasts, or call any of them on the VHF either.

Some people just need to take a chill pill. The navigation rules come into play whenever there is a "risk of collision." If I get to that point, I consider that I have already done something wrong. I prefer to alter course BEFORE I am obligated to be the standon vessel. Less stress and more fun all round. I do however not get that rush of righteous indignation that some people seem to need.

I, too, sailed often on SF Bay, from 1983-7 in our Catalina 22, 1987-1998 in our Catalina 25, and 1998-2016 in our Catalina 34. Earlier was usually on weekends, the last 18 years with the bigger boat both weekends and weekdays as well as racing from 1999 to 2006 regularly and then some yearly races like the Rites of Spring from 2007 to 2015. Yes, I sailed a lot there.


Courtesy as well as understanding Colregs always worked for me. I agree, avoiding questionable circumstances by working hard to not getting into them to begin with works.


Saturdays and Sundays especially during the summer can be very confusing for folks who are just too stupid to learn. There can be more than a half dozen or more different races taking place on the main Bay, upwind, downwind, reaching, spinnakers, white sails only, monohulls and multihulls.



For the uninitiated, it can look downright zany. But even before I started racing, it became apparent that there were regular RACE COURSES, because most YCs and race committees used the buoys in the Bay as turning marks, plus Blackaller and the Berkeley Circle marks.


You could always tell the boats who were out sailing for their one-day-a-year outing. Clueless morons. Folks who still don't know starboard from port tack, upwind or downwind. Mixed in with the "racing!!!" jerks.


What could go wrong?


Actually, over those more than three decades, I was quite impressed by how well it all worked because of the efforts of the Corinthian sailors and most of the general public.


Even the multihull Americas Cup was great. After the last race I ended up slowly sailing under the Bay Bridge B/C when the winners and their entourage came through. While it was like being in a washing machine, it was thrilling.


Great memories, and I got a lotta pictures, too.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I, too, sailed often on SF Bay, from 1983-7 in our Catalina 22, 1987-1998 in our Catalina 25, and 1998-2016 in our Catalina 34. Earlier was usually on weekends, the last 18 years with the bigger boat both weekends and weekdays as well as racing from 1999 to 2006 regularly and then some yearly races like the Rites of Spring from 2007 to 2015. Yes, I sailed a lot there.


Courtesy as well as understanding Colregs always worked for me. I agree, avoiding questionable circumstances by working hard to not getting into them to begin with works.


Saturdays and Sundays especially during the summer can be very confusing for folks who are just too stupid to learn. There can be more than a half dozen or more different races taking place on the main Bay, upwind, downwind, reaching, spinnakers, white sails only, monohulls and multihulls.



For the uninitiated, it can look downright zany. But even before I started racing, it became apparent that there were regular RACE COURSES, because most YCs and race committees used the buoys in the Bay as turning marks, plus Blackaller and the Berkeley Circle marks.


You could always tell the boats who were out sailing for their one-day-a-year outing. Clueless morons. Folks who still don't know starboard from port tack, upwind or downwind. Mixed in with the "racing!!!" jerks.


What could go wrong?


Actually, over those more than three decades, I was quite impressed by how well it all worked because of the efforts of the Corinthian sailors and most of the general public.


Even the multihull Americas Cup was great. After the last race I ended up slowly sailing under the Bay Bridge B/C when the winners and their entourage came through. While it was like being in a washing machine, it was thrilling.


Great memories, and I got a lotta pictures, too.

That post reminded me of many SF Bay races in the early 80's to 90's. We sailed fully crewed and also single handed. One time in particular. I'm singlehanding my Cal29 in the Vallejo Race. The start at GGYC and we had to leave Blossom Rock to port. At the same time there was some huge event, maybe Fleet Week, there was a big crowd of spectator boats and the CG was keeping everyone within 100 yards of the City Front. Downwind start, spinnakers up, threading our way through that mess and trying to not only avoid boats but also keep actually racing. Very fortunately, the wind was light. Everyone behaved themselves and nary a cross word exchanged. I do not remember ever using the hail "racing" and think it is detestable.

Later I became a cruiser, got a big boat, and when I sailed the Bay I knew to keep my distance from the racers. I wish everyone could at least be required to do some dinghy racing and learn not only the right of way rules but also the customs of nautical courtesy. Often the latter are really more important.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I wish everyone could at least be required to do some dinghy racing and learn not only the right of way rules but also the customs of nautical courtesy. Often the latter are really more important.

Dinghy (or any other form of sailboat) racing is exactly the wrong way to learn COLREGs and "customs of nautical courtesy".

A. There are no "right of way rules" in COLREGs, the concept only exists under RROS between boats that are racing (and in very limited situations in the US Inland Rules).

B. When a result is on the line "courtesy" is the last thing that competitive racers think about (especially in team and match racing )

I wish that every racer had the preamble to Part 2 of the RROS and it's implications drummed into them before they ever started in a race.
"When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) ..."

Unfortunately the drafters of RROS then proceed to perpetuate the myth of "right of way" by incorrectly stating:
"or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.
"

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by StuM

Dinghy (or any other form of sailboat) racing is exactly the wrong way to learn COLREGs and "customs of nautical courtesy".

A. There are no "right of way rules" in COLREGs, the concept only exists under RROS between boats that are racing (and in very limited situations in the US Inland Rules).

B. When a result is on the line "courtesy" is the last thing that competitive racers think about (especially in team and match racing )

I wish that every racer had the preamble to Part 2 of the RROS and it's implications drummed into them before they ever started in a race.
"When a boat sailing under these rules meets a vessel that is not, she shall comply with the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) ..."

Unfortunately the drafters of RROS then proceed to perpetuate the myth of "right of way" by incorrectly stating:
"or government right-of-way rules. If the sailing instructions so state, the rules of Part 2 are replaced by the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS or by government right-of-way rules.
"

I used the phrase "right of way" without remembering that phrase has been soundly thrashed on this forum. To me it means COLREGS but I make the mistake of assuming everyone knows the finely shaded differences.

Dinghy racing gives a neophyte an inexpensive and quick lesson in most of the rules we have to follow on the water. One value of dinghy racing is it teaches most of the rules in real-time rather than just studying a book or listening to an instructor. And if you screw up, there is more damage to your pride than to your person, or others. I should have made clear that a proper instructor will teach that the rules apply to all vessels, not just racers, and that racers have no particular status just because they are racing.

I'm very sure that all professional certified instructors should be teaching that fact. I guess I had a good instructor. I do remember learning this very early.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I used the phrase "right of way" without remembering that phrase has been soundly thrashed on this forum. To me it means COLREGS but I make the mistake of assuming everyone knows the finely shaded differences.

Dinghy racing gives a neophyte an inexpensive and quick lesson in most of the rules we have to follow on the water. One value of dinghy racing is it teaches most of the rules in real-time rather than just studying a book or listening to an instructor. And if you screw up, there is more damage to your pride than to your person, or others. I should have made clear that a proper instructor will teach that the rules apply to all vessels, not just racers, and that racers have no particular status just because they are racing.

I'm very sure that all professional certified instructors should be teaching that fact. I guess I had a good instructor. I do remember learning this very early.

I learned to sail in dinghy racing, and I agree that it is a fantastic way to learn sailing! No better way to learn sailing itself, because the craft responds instantly to every bit of sail trim you do. I can't imagine what kind of a sailor I would be without that experience.



I didn't learn jack about the COLREGS, however, and I think it is very rare to learn something about them while dinghy racing. We focussed on the racing rules, which are totally different, and work differently. "Right of way" really applies in the racing rules, but there is nothing like that in the COLREGS. It's not a "finely shaded difference" in my opinion.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

"Right of way" really applies in the racing rules, but there is nothing like that in the COLREGS. It's not a "finely shaded difference" in my opinion.

Yep, just look at any crowded start line to learn the fundamental difference

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I used the phrase "right of way" without remembering that phrase has been soundly thrashed on this forum. To me it means COLREGS but I make the mistake of assuming everyone knows the finely shaded differences.

I agree strongly with Dockhead. There are no "finely shaded differences." The terminology of "right of way" was dropped on purpose decades ago specifically because all parties are burdened with responsibilities for collision avoidance. The distinction has nothing to do with people being thrashed on this forum. It has everything to do with the word, intent, and spirit of the COLREGS and the various national variations (Inland Rules in the US, the Canadian rules, ....).

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I agree strongly with Dockhead. There are no "finely shaded differences." The terminology of "right of way" was dropped on purpose decades ago specifically because all parties are burdenedwith responsibilities for collision avoidance. The distinction has nothing to do with people being thrashed on this forum. It has everything to do with the word, intent, and spirit of the COLREGS and the various national variations (Inland Rules in the US, the Canadian rules, ....).

Nice post, guess you were just kidding though?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Nice post, guess you were just kidding though?

I was the word burdened carefully and on purpose. Yes it reflects the old language of COLREGS. It is also a synonym for responsibility. Responsibility is why the COLREGS changed based on the philosophy that ALL parties are responsible for avoiding a collision regardless of status--give-way or stand-on. I'll leave the legalisms to the professionals. What I know--KNOW--is that every party in a scenario is responsible for avoiding collisions. In the anecdote I have shared many times, I think including in this thread, of a crossing with an offshore tug and tow at the mouth of Delaware Bay I was stand-on and he was give-way. Had we both been remiss and collided we would BOTH be accountable.

We all carry the burden of responsibility at sea. "Don't run into anything."

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I was the word burdened carefully and on purpose. Yes it reflects the old language of COLREGS. It is also a synonym for responsibility. Responsibility is why the COLREGS changed based on the philosophy that ALL parties are responsible for avoiding a collision regardless of status--give-way or stand-on. I'll leave the legalisms to the professionals. What I know--KNOW--is that every party in a scenario is responsible for avoiding collisions. In the anecdote I have shared many times, I think including in this thread, of a crossing with an offshore tug and tow at the mouth of Delaware Bay I was stand-on and he was give-way. Had we both been remiss and collided we would BOTH be accountable.
We all carry the burden of responsibility at sea. "Don't run into anything."

The '72 COLREGS did away with the concepts of "burdened" and "privileged", but Auspicious didn't mean "burdened" in this way. I don't have a problem with how he uses the term. Standing on is a burden indeed. Everyone is burdened, always.