Collision Avoidance, Cones of Uncertainty, and Appropriate CPA

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Yes, it it is an infraction. The lighting rules clearly exclude having both deck level and a masthead red/green lights on at the same time. No boat should have them wired to the same switch.

Incorrect!

Colregs specifically permit a sailboat underway to have deck lights and masthead all around red and green lights on simultaneously.

Rule 25
(a). A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i). sidelights;
(ii). a sternlight.
(b). In a sailing vessel of less than 20 metres in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
(c). A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, and then there is a level of idealism somewhere under "ultimate".

Colregs permit the carrying of decklights and red and green vertical masthead lights on a sailboat simultaneously.

This can result in red over red and green over green.

My decklights are white and are used to light up my deck. I assume that you mis-spoke and meant to say deck level navigational lights.

In this case you would see red-green-red, red-green-green, red-green-white. None of which look like red-red, green-green, white-white.

Please explain how you get red-red from red-green-red.

Colregs specifically prohibit displaying the mast head vertical lights and a masthead combined light (trilight).

They do not specifically prohibit displaying decklights and a masthead combined light.

Would doing so fall under the "confusing" provision?

Of course it would and it does. I've seen it as have others who already have spoken.

Well since a sailboat can show red over red and green over green in complete compliance, then the only issue is white over white.

Sure a sailboat can display red over red when they are NUC (on fire for example). But they cannot display red over red when not NUC and be in compliance with COLREGS.

A sailboat can easily show white over white, from something as simple as a cabin light through a port over a white stern light.

yawn - pettyfogging

I see a plethora of white lights on lots of boats underway (and even at anchor), including large commercial vessels, which invariably include at least one white over white combination (beyond that required under Colregs).

Personally, I see so many boats with nav lights not working at all, when I encounter one showing both decklights and masthead trilights simultaneously, I don't have a problem with it at all.

lovely and good on you.

On the contrary, if one set fails mid voyage (or between repairs), at least they will still be showing running lights.

I certainly wouldn't "scold" or "attempt to educate" a boater who displayed both simultaneously.

rules, rules, rules who needs them. Might as well turn on your strobe too.

Oh an by the way as I read it no one tried to scold or educate another boater. But then of course....

[kristjan]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, and then there is a level of idealism somewhere under "ultimate".

Colregs permit the carrying of decklights and red and green vertical masthead lights on a sailboat simultaneously.

This can result in red over red and green over green.

Colregs specifically prohibit displaying the mast head vertical lights and a masthead combined light (trilight).

They do not specifically prohibit displaying decklights and a masthead combined light.

Would doing so fall under the "confusing" provision?

Well since a sailboat can show red over red and green over green in complete compliance, then the only issue is white over white.

A sailboat can easily show white over white, from something as simple as a cabin light through a port over a white stern light.

I see a plethora of white lights on lots of boats underway (and even at anchor), including large commercial vessels, which invariably include at least one white over white combination (beyond that required under Colregs).

Personally, I see so many boats with nav lights not working at all, when I encounter one showing both decklights and masthead trilights simultaneously, I don't have a problem with it at all.

On the contrary, if one set fails mid voyage (or between repairs), at least they will still be showing running lights.

I certainly wouldn't "scold" or "attempt to educate" a boater who displayed both simultaneously.

Nope.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Juho

...
I may need to abandon also the idea of connecting to a large ship at sea and start sleeping since I might also in that case be considered only RAM.

In the same vein: If you are lying to a "sea anchor", are you "at anchor" ?

[Juho]

Originally Posted by StuM

In the same vein: If you are lying to a "sea anchor", are you "at anchor" ?

That's another good question. The name is a good match, but the court could consider also that vessel to be "restricted in her ability to manoeuvre" (although rule 3(g) doesn't really cover this case).

Rule 3(g) talks about reasons related to "the nature of her work". That might not cover activities that are not related to work, e.g. resting or seeking safety when lying to a sea anchor.

The boat is not stationary when lying to a sea anchor. It will move, and could in principle hit another stationary vessel. It could be classified as "underway" also for that reason.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Incorrect!

Colregs specifically permit a sailboat underway to have deck lights and masthead all around red and green lights on simultaneously.

Rule 25
(a). A sailing vessel underway shall exhibit:
(i). sidelights;
(ii). a sternlight.
(b). In a sailing vessel of less than 20 metres in length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can best be seen.
(c). A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.

The tricolor lights discussed in (b) are not all around lights. I have never seen a sailboat with all around red over green light at the mast. The lights in (b) may not be combined with the deck level lights. The rule is clearly either or but not both.

The red over green light just tells it is a sailing vessel but tells nothing about the aspect. That's what the side lights do. Having two sets of side lights (one set at deck level and another atop the mast) is confusing and not allowed per the rule you have cited.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

The tricolor lights discussed in (b) are not all around lights.

I don't believe anyone suggested they were.

I have never seen a sailboat with all around red over green light at the mast.

Me either, but this potentially confusing combination of masthead lights and sidelights (deck mounted nav lights) are allowed under Colregs.

The lights in (b) may not be combined with the deck level lights. The rule is clearly either or but not both.

In your mind maybe, but for me, not so much.

The rules are very clear that the masthead red over green is allowed with sidelights or a combined deck level lantern.

The rules are very clear that the masthead red over green are not allowed with a combined masthead red/green.

The rules do not specifically state that sidelights or combined deck level light are not allowed with a masthead combined red/green.

The red over green light just tells it is a sailing vessel but tells nothing about the aspect. That's what the side lights do. Having two sets of side lights (one set at deck level and another atop the mast) is confusing and not allowed per the rule you have cited.

I have seen deck level nav lights and trilights on simultaneously lots of times and have never, ever been confused. I don't know how one could be, unless maybe they were trying to be. I guess if someone wanted to claim confusion by it, they could, but it has always appeared pretty obvious to me.

The red or green deck mounted light show intermittently (with the rise and fall in waves) and the red or green above in constant visibility...must be a sailboat with sidelights and trilight on. Pretty simple actually.

I think there are way bigger fish to fry than this little minnow of an issue.

[evm1024]

I'm told that the red over green (sailing machine) lights are much more common in Europe.

With their use very limited in North America I would expect it to be a bit confusing to us folks. But not at all confusing from someone coming from where they are in common use. It is very easy for us folks from the US and Canada to assume that our way it the only way.

In any case we here in the USA (and likely the rest of the world) are taught Red over green - sailing machine.

Rule 25 is quite specific - sailboats under sail can display (a) sidelights and stern light, or if (b) under 20 m can display a tricolor at or near the top of the mast. And (c) in addition to sidelights and stern light a red light over a green light at or near the top of the mast. But the red over green cannot be displayed at the same time as a masthead tricolor.

Showing a masthead tricolor and sidelights and stern light is not specified as allowed under the rules. Let's call it creative lighting - this creative lighting can be confused with actual lighting and is therefore prohibited.



I have seen many cars speeding. That does not change the speed limits. Having seen lots of boats displaying a masthead tricolor and deck level nav lights does not make this a legal configuration....

That a deck level light may be obscured by waves has nothing to do with the need to follow the rules. An obscuring light may be due to a deck crane as well as wave action. And to assume that it is a sailboat is making a determination based on scanty information.

A vessel that is NUC (red over red) shall be kept clear of by pretty much every other occupation. Big difference between NUC and sailboat in the pecking order and I tend to be a pessimist where I do not know what I'm looking at. Error on the side of caution. But that is me.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I don't believe anyone suggested they were.

Me either, but this potentially confusing combination of masthead lights and sidelights (deck mounted nav lights) are allowed under Colregs.

It's only confusing if you don't understand what lights you are talking about.

Please read COLREGS and take note of the names of the various required lights - then use the correct descriptions appropriately. You talk of of "masthead lights" when you are at various times talking about either a "combined lantern at or near the top of the mast" or "two all round lights in a vertical line the upper being red and the lower green".

A masthead light is something completely different to either of these.

Similarly sidelights are red and green lights with specific location requirements (which may be combined in one lantern on the centre line in a smaller vessel). Deck lights are an entirely different thing. ( see Annex 1, Para 2(g))

[StuM]

I'd just add that the red and green lights in the combined lantern at or near the top of the mast ARE sidelights.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by StuM

It's only confusing if you don't understand what lights you are talking about.

Please read COLREGS and take note of the names of the various required lights - then use the correct descriptions appropriately. You talk of of "masthead lights" when you are at various times talking about either a "combined lantern at or near the top of the mast" or "two all round lights in a vertical line the upper being red and the lower green".

A masthead light is something completely different to either of these.
'
Similarly sidelights are red and green lights with specific location requirements (which may be combined in one lantern on the centre line in a smaller vessel). Deck lights are an entirely different thing. ( see Annex 1, Para 2(g))

Thanks, I knew I could count on you to correct my nomenclature digressions. ;-)

You are correct, I abbreviated the red, green, and white deck level navigation lights
to "deck lights". My bad.

For anyone following this, I apologise if you did not understand this to mean sidelights and stern light as set out in COLREGS - International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - Articles of the Convention on the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, Rule 25 a (i) and a (ii).

Additionally, I apologise for my use of the term "masthead", when referring to coloured lights or a combination light (aka trilight) mounted near the masthead.

I sure am glad I didn't use the term "spreader lights", "running lights", "steaming light", or that light sometimes in combo that shines down on the deck, as a "deck light".

The confusion surely would have taken months to resolve.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I sure am glad I didn't use the term "spreader lights", "running lights", "steaming light", or that light sometimes in combo that shines down on the deck, as a "deck light".

The confusion surely would have taken months to resolve.

Nothing that an electrical storm would not have resolved....

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

The rules do not specifically state that sidelights or combined deck level light are not allowed with a masthead combined red/green.

Rules seldom state what is not allowed. The document size would grow to infinity. If something is not specifically stated as allowed then it is not allowed. That's how all rules are written.

[kristjan]

Originally Posted by evm1024

I'm told that the red over green (sailing machine) lights are much more common in Europe.



With their use very limited in North America I would expect it to be a bit confusing to us folks. But not at all confusing from someone coming from where they are in common use. It is very easy for us folks from the US and Canada to assume that our way it the only way.



In any case we here in the USA (and likely the rest of the world) are taught Red over green - sailing machine.



Rule 25 is quite specific - sailboats under sail can display (a) sidelights and stern light, or if (b) under 20 m can display a tricolor at or near the top of the mast. And (c) in addition to sidelights and stern light a red light over a green light at or near the top of the mast. But the red over green cannot be displayed at the same time as a masthead tricolor.



Showing a masthead tricolor and sidelights and stern light is not specified as allowed under the rules. Let's call it creative lighting - this creative lighting can be confused with actual lighting and is therefore prohibited.







I have seen many cars speeding. That does not change the speed limits. Having seen lots of boats displaying a masthead tricolor and deck level nav lights does not make this a legal configuration....



That a deck level light may be obscured by waves has nothing to do with the need to follow the rules. An obscuring light may be due to a deck crane as well as wave action. And to assume that it is a sailboat is making a determination based on scanty information.



A vessel that is NUC (red over red) shall be kept clear of by pretty much every other occupation. Big difference between NUC and sailboat in the pecking order and I tend to be a pessimist where I do not know what I'm looking at. Error on the side of caution. But that is me.

You’re right about the Europe but, I learned in UK south coast and red over green is not uncommon.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Rules seldom state what is not allowed. The document size would grow to infinity. If something is not specifically stated as allowed then it is not allowed. That's how all rules are written.

In this very section the rules do specifically identify some combinations that are and are not permitted, and do not specifically prohibit a masthead (located) tricolour and near deck sidelights and stern light being shown simultaneously.

The purpose of Colregs is to prevent collisions at sea, and I don't think anyone showing "normal running lights" and a "tricolour" simultaneously is going to cause one. If anything, it could help to prevent.

I acknowledge that it may cause some rule thumpers heads to explode.

Anyone who can't handle this concept must go nuts when they see a vessel with an anchor light showing and a colour changing disco ball or LED rope lights hanging in the cockpit.

I see lots of sailboats with additional anchor lights hung out because the operator fears a power boat will confuse the mast top light with a star and plow into them in the middle of the night. Is this bad? Should we advise all these people that they are not Colregs compliant, because Colregs specifies what combinations are allowed and not what is prohibited, and since it does not specify an additional anchor light or disco ball and this could be confused?

IMHO, no.

This is far better than the bozos who don't show an anchor light at all.

Again, there are bigger fish to fry.