Crewless Ships

[captain58sailin]

I wonder what Lloyds thinks about this?

[Oceanride007]

captain58sailin do you mean class society, when ships became automated to the point of not needing 24 hr Engineroom Lloyds created 100A1, beeing unattended machinery space. They would do something similar on the bridge. First stop however would be reducing manning and have a alarm system if there is risk to the vessel, a captain qualified person gets summoned to the bridge.
Do you mean insurance, thats where I think we got them, Engineers will not man the vessels on their own, despite how they complain about others they don't want to be lonely. Anyways There will always be cheap labour to exploit & the fuel is running out. Tongue in cheek

[captain58sailin]

I was referring to the insurance side, of course the classification rating is what determines your insurance rate. Maybe I'm too old school, but I want at least 2 men on the bridge and 1 man in the engineroom at all times. Nothing replaces on scene hands on.

[sy_gilana]

Totally against this...how does an automated ship respond to passing me and my family in a liferaft waving our lifejackets for help? There are too many decisions at sea that require a human point of view.

[Celestialsailor]

With all due respect...it isn't the duty of a commercial ship to pick you up in your life raft. If that's the only reason you're against it. All though the unmanned ship may be the reason you end up in one.

[DumnMad]

Beyond me but is there any way a Somalian pirate computer hacker could take over a crewless ship?

[sailorboy1]

are there computers in Somalia?

[Coops]

Fully crewless ships could be a step up though from crewless ships because of clueless crews. The same could be said about lots of things perhaps, like yachts and motorboats even.

Coops.

[Oceanride007]

To captain58, we haven't had 2 men on the bridge and 1 man in the engineroom at all times since the arc.
GMDSS was a step towards diminishing responsibility. If you could start off with a whole complete shipping change ie all ships followed a set of digital commands/rules and safety has been handed over to rescue authority ie someone else/anybody!. Interesting that the main shipping costs will diminish as waiting for better navigation conditions would not cost the shipper more, as they do now. As a dead ship consumes no fuel or food.
Do you think good sense will prevail, In Aus we have the tightest regulation/safety standard but the costs got 2 high, so its was cheaper for Aus exporters to use ships of shame and to diminish any risk to them they get extra insurance. its still cheaper, and we don't have any ships left. USA is protected by a cabotage act its expensive, it is not there for good sense or safety, more a defensive posture and for how long.
It'll happen by stealth and justified by limitated trades. Lets hope they don't figured out how to make freeways, turnpikes overpass.

[ozskipper]

Not much difference between a drone plane and a drone ship really. Yep, way of the future.

Most likely heard in many public bars in the late 1800's "them steam powered ships will never take off. Ships will always have sails"

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by ozskipper

Not much difference between a drone plane and a drone ship really. Yep, way of the future.

Most likely heard in many public bars in the late 1800's "them steam powered ships will never take off. Ships will always have sails"

Ah, the good old days. When ships were made of wood and men were made of steel. Heard that a lot when I first went to sea. Actually the guys saying it had never sailed on a wooden ship. The past, it seems, was always better. Although it does seem that way more and more as far as going to sea goes today. Best to have your own boat and leave the commercial stuff alone.

[Watermann]

No way is this "just around the corner". We don't just sit on our ass with our feet kicked-up while hopping from sea buoy to sea buoy.

I don't care how well engineered or of high-quality the vessel is. Every day onboard ocean-going commercial ships, something, somewhere is fixed/tweaked/replaced/adjusted etc, that if left alone to its end point, would result in catastrophe. At best, you'd be dead in the water - at worst, you'd lose the vessel.

This is a dream by bean-counters with no shipboard engineering knowledge.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Watermann

No way is this "just around the corner". We don't just sit on our ass with our feet kicked-up while hopping from sea buoy to sea buoy.

I don't care how well engineered or of high-quality the vessel is. Every day onboard ocean-going commercial ships, something, somewhere is fixed/tweaked/replaced/adjusted etc, that if left alone to its end point, would result in catastrophe. At best, you'd be dead in the water - at worst, you'd lose the vessel.

This is a dream by bean-counters with no shipboard engineering knowledge.

I think you miss how technology progresses. What you are seeing is a research concept, but as the pieces are put in place over the forthcoming years , manning will corresponding reduce , looks at the reduction in ships engineering staff and the rise of remote diagnostics etc.

Eventually you're down to one man and his dog etc. then just the dog. By that time you will have accepted the technology

Remember how people sniggered when you put a brick cellphone to you ear and talked in public , and nowadays.......


Dave

[Watermann]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think you miss how technology progresses. What you are seeing is a research concept, but as the pieces are put in place over the forthcoming years , manning will corresponding reduce , looks at the reduction in ships engineering staff and the rise of remote diagnostics etc.

Eventually you're down to one man and his dog etc. then just the dog. By that time you will have accepted the technology

Remember how people sniggered when you put a brick cellphone to you ear and talked in public , and nowadays.......


Dave

I think you're underestimating the complexity of the machine. To me, the navigational stuff would be the easier part. The big void would be left on the engineering side and the "state of the art" automation in place now isn't even all that reliable. I have yet to work on a vessel whose "automation" system didn't have numerous glitches, false readings and failures. Some were better than others. Nice to glance at, but not the end all, be all. Never worked with RR but everything I've heard regarding their marine systems is nothing but nightmares.

A ship at sea is not a "turn the key and go" operation. Automation has been great at reducing the workload of operating the machinery but it doesn't turn wrenches or replace gaskets for you. Ship engineering staffs have been reduced, but the automation has only turned them from operating/maintenance engineers (like on the steam plants) to mostly maintenance engineers (which on the motor ships, is quite a bit of work). They are still quite busy.

Remote diagnosing (alarming) is relatively simple to implement but I don't see that as the major hurdle. What do you do about a burst fuel pipe in the E/R? Clogged sea strainers? Failure of a main engine cylinder? Fuel contamination that overwhelms your purifiers and auto-filters? I have experienced each of these first-hand. Not common, but not at all unusual. How about the type of problem that plagued the Emma Maersk back in February when its shaft alley and half the main engine room flooded? Without crew onboard, the ship would've been lost. Even on the most technologically-advanced vessels today, something is maintained or physically manipulated that while minor at the moment, would turn into a major problem if left unattended during a 10 day ocean crossing. Fuel management and ballasting alone is a continuous operation on a modern HFO-burning vessel.

There would have to be major leaps in other technologies that go beyond the ship itself. Weather forecasting and routing is pretty good these days, but nothing beats being onboard, seeing the weather with your own eyes, feeling the ship, knowing how it's riding and making course/speed adjustments as necessary. Modern vessels have enough power that if you apply it incorrectly, you will do damage. Without that first-hand perspective, you can do a lot of structural damage to the vessel, not to mention its cargo.

Refrigerated containers are very reliable but fail at sea all the time. They take monitoring and maintenance from the ship's crew to keep from spoiling their cargo. They would have to be made 100% foolproof as well.

Container lashings work loose over long periods, especially if the ship is working in the seas pretty good. They need attention and tightening.

What happens when an unmanned ship goes dead in the water in the middle of the Pacific? How long of a delay is going to be acceptable to customers to get a crew out there, diagnose the problem, possibly have to wait for parts to be flown/shipped out, fix the problem and get the ship making way again? A day? Two? A week? Container ships especially already run very tight schedules relatively speaking in the shipping world.

And to do all of this to, among other "benefits", be able to get away without having a sewage treatment system installed? On the ships I was on, the MSD treatment system was the size of a VW bug and probably weighed about the same. Not going to be noticeable on a 10,000 TEU container ship.


These types of things are fascinating to read about in Popular Science-type magazines, but are often fantasy. If someone can come up with a way to get beyond all of these problems and make it economically feasible, more power to ya. I'm not a stick in the mud when it comes to technological progress, but I doubt any of us will see this in our lifetimes. We have a better chance of seeing a manned-mission to Mars.

[Oceanride007]

Well its incredible how reliable machinery has become and control systems can be made dual redundant and minor incidents can make Ships Officers look bad. I don't doubt someone will try, there will be lots of manager/commander types who grow up on playstation and do not listen to reason.

I hope these types wait for IMO ratification and also Colregs would need a rewrite. And they become old waiting.

Then we have to wait for the Waterman effect to kick in.

I also think reducing numbers on board has a detrimental effect on those remaining.

All good reasons, for a while at least we can rest easy.