Cutter vs Solent Rig

[pkempthorne]

Originally Posted by usdivers61

Hey guys,


I am interested in adding a cutter or solent rig to my sloop for versatile of sail plan.


I would be interested in hearing from owners who have added one or the other, and what were the costs and hassles involved.

I have added a removable Solent storm jib with an integral stay to my Jeanneau SO379. It is attached to a pad eye mounted on a large stainless plate which ties the deck to the anchor locker bulkhead. When needed it is hoisted with a double purchase halyard. Works very well on its own or with a heavily reefed main but the slot is a bit narrow to work well with the jib as well. Both are on furlers so it is easy to switch between them. I sail single handed and it is nice not to have to always have runners complicating things. Main thing is to have very strong mounting for tack or it will lift the deck off.

[argonauta1]

Re Cutter rig. I added an inner fore stay to my Beneteau 440. Great spot to mount the chain plate is between the anchor locker and the sail locker protruding through the deck via a small hole. I avoided running backs by limiting the height of the stay attachment to the mast by about 15 feet so it came to just above the upper spreaders. In this way I kept the stress on the mast well below the mast head and avoided any tendency for "mast pumping" in heavy conditions. It also meant that the fore stay and inner fore stay were not parallel like in most cutter modifications. We attached the clew to a snatch block at the lower mast running sheets from there to the cockpit thus it was self tacking. We used a hank on storm/stay sail which was extremity effective. Did us well on a circumnavigation and never caused trouble. In fact it kept us out of trouble as in strong downwind conditions we often ran stay sail only or at other times mated to a heavily reefed, poled out genoa. In retrospect, the cutter modification was one of the most useful modifications we made to the yacht before going bluewater.

[Carlos Molinelli]

I have a Holland 34´Sloop and added a Solent stay since several years ago.
I hook a 85% Jib on it, which can be reefed to 65%.
Handling is superb with the main reefed. Boat is perfectly balanced because main center of effort moves forward and jib´s aft.
I use this when my 135 Genoa is too much. Solent stay is against the mast when not in use, so there is no problem to tack the genoa.
No running back are necessary.

[GinoDelG]

I own a 44 ft sloop. My rigger suggested adding a solent with roller furler to avoid running back stays. We love it. So easy when the wind goes past 25. In fact we usually sail with both head sail out as the Genny slides past the solent, then we tack the solent.

[wingssail]

For a different point of view:

I missed what size and type of boat you have, other than that it is a sloop.

Our approach is for simplicity. SIMPLICITY.

We didn't add anything.

We use a smallish jib (85%) on the standard forestay. With a full main we can sail OK down to about 11 knots of true wind. Below that we are slow. We might motor. Under 5 knots of true wind we will definitely motor or we'll change to a bigger fore sail. We are not afraid to change sails.

We can carry that combination (jib and main) up to about 20kts true, then we reef the main. At 25true we go to the second reef. We have three reef points and use the third if the wind is over 30, but by then the jib has been struck. Then we are under mainsail alone. Three reefs in the main and no jib takes us to over 50kts. maybe more. In 33 years on this boat, around the world, and more, we've not seen winds over that except for gusts so we don't know.

Forget all the supposed benefits of the extra stays, and better "Balance" with a double head rig, etc, it's largely theoretical. On you sloop you probably won't have enough sail area on the staysail to go anywhere, and it messes up your tacking with the regular jib. AND it is just one more thing to deal with.

90% of your sailing will be no hassle, just reef and unreef to change gears, and lose the jib when it is really windy.

I do like the idea of a code zero ahead of the forestay, but tacking upwind in light air is not easily done, plus there is the expense and complexity. If I had a boat which could benefit from that, and the money, I'd probably do it. But I don't.

In our case we change sails. I'm not recommending that for everyone. Most people just won't work that hard. Or they are afraid of the foredeck. We go to the foredeck and put up a big genoa if we want power in the light stuff, and we have no problems tacking. We also have no problems dropping that big sail and putting up the jib when the wind pipes up. We're in our 70's.

But, Just do without it!

Set your boat up for easy sailing in the 90% of the time and have a plan, maybe less than perfect plan, for the remainder of the time.

You won't regret it.

[demacsea]

Take a look at Is the Cutter Rig More Useful than the Solent Rig for Offshore Cruising? which sets out the benefits and disadvantages of each rig.

[JPA Cate]

Something not mentioned in the article, that we have noticed, is that having two furlers with their sails rolled up right at the bow, is windage: at anchor, the boat "dances" (yaws) a lot. Removing the inner furling sail reduces the yawing considerably. Getting good luff tension is indeed difficult...and we have runners to help.

Iirc, the boat is a new one for usdivers, and is in the vicinity of 30-32 ft. or so. I would not add the inner stay to this boat, unless it were removable. It was designed to work okay with its set of headsails. I might add the rope luff storm jib, though. Jim made one of those, and it worked well. You do need to make them far smaller than you'd think. Conversations with our sailmaker after the tragic '98 Sydney to Hobart led us to the conclusion that most boats' storm jibs are made too large.

If he thinks he MUST HAVE at least the solent stay, I'd suggest not having it on a roller, like we do, but with a Hyfield lever, and a way to secure it back out of the way near the mast, but on deck level (it will require a reinforced pad eye, and a tensioning method). This will allow the owner to short tack with the genoa, if need be. And then, he could have two sails for it, an about 100%, and a storm jib.

Ann

[Zzmeyer]

I installed a staysail on my boat to help with the slog up the baja coast. The rigger liked the idea of additional mast support. The big disadvantage is I also do a lot of day sailing and tacking the genoa around the stay sail (it is not removable) is a pain in the butt.

[billnz]

Originally Posted by usdivers61

Hey guys,


I am interested in adding a cutter or solent rig to my sloop for versatile of sail plan.


I would be interested in hearing from owners who have added one or the other, and what were the costs and hassles involved.

Iv sailed on several cutters/70 Ft. ketch with a self tacking stay-sail on a boom ,Not good , A 55ft cutter with a roller furler stay sail both with runners set up so one didn't have to leave the cockpit to set the runners up<A 45 ft Benetaue with a solent ,Bit of a pain when tacking . Found the cutter with the r/f stay-sail the most versatile , Great in the heavy,No main & reefed stay-sail worked a treat in 40+& triple reefed main & stay sail in 30+ down wind or up was a joy If you can call going to windward in 30+ cold southerly a joy.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi, yes mine does but I dont actually like doing it that way, would prefer to individual set ups.

Not sure why you don't like using both tracks in a foil. It works great and makes reducing projected area very simple. An elegant solution.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Something not mentioned in the article, that we have noticed, is that having two furlers with their sails rolled up right at the bow, is windage: at anchor, the boat "dances" (yaws) a lot.

As noted earlier the effect of windage so far forward has a noticeable impact on pointing and speed. The first person who says "we're not racing" gets keel-hauled. Comfort is reduced. Seakeeping degrades. Six days vice nine on passage is a big deal.

[goingplaces]

This is my experience with a solent rig: The boat is a 30' offshore racer/cruiser. I converted it from a sloop to a solent rig mainly because most of my sailing is off shore. Both sails are on furlers. The 150% genoa is 5.8oz and is not cut to be partially furled. With the wind above about 15 knots I furle it away and out comes the solent. The 100% solent is 7.8oz and is cut to be partially furled. This actually worked quite well, it covered most of the winds. But there is some down sides of a solent rig too. It makes the rig difficult to trim. Sailing down wind in strong winds mast pumping can become an issue. I tried to fix this problem with changing the forestay and the backstay to Dyform wire. This helped but it never was very satisfactory. I underestimated the effect of the added weight in the rig, particularly with the two furlers. Something else to be considered is the reduced close hauled performance. With a well performing boat this is quite noticeable. The gap between the two stays is too small, resulting in a disturbed air flow. Perhaps it takes a much bigger boat to make a conversion to a solent rig worth while. And of course there is the problem of tacking. Slow and awkward. After many offshore miles with this rig my advise would be this: think twice about a conversion to a solent rig. You will spend a lot of effort and money for little gain - if at all. You can not compare it with a solent rig which was designed as such from the beginning. Like the modern offshore racers with multiple fore stays for example. This is something totally different. I seriously think of going back to a sloop again. A genoa on a furler and a detachable inner fore stay with a hanked on storm jib is a good compromise. Together with a powerful cruising spinnaker it's a good way for going offshore and for coastal cruising. Read post #65 by wingssail. Very pragmatic, very true.

[Mystic38]

I have a sloop and the crew count is pretty much two.

My 1993 Sabre 38 mkII has a quite powerful main with 3 reefs and added a solent rig with a detachable inner forestay and a hank on 85% "staysail" for offshore...anticipating close to balance with the third reef.

The inner forestay needs to be detachable otherwise the 135% genoa simply will not pass, and so the staysail must be hank on.

When you think about it... The times offshore that conditions dictated the disposal of a partly furled genoa and the raising of the staysail, seas & wind will be such that you may not be inclined to go forward and deal with setting the forestay, securing the genoa sheets, hanking on the staysail and rigging the lines. I have done this once.

The inner forestay and staysail are now off the boat

I instead purchased a 105% jib to complement the 135% and simply commit to one or the other before i depart. The 105% is a great balance depending on conditions with the 2nd or 3rd reef so it is a better overall sail plan from effectivity & operation.

So..the solent rig that i was enamoured with was not a well thought out plan on my part...it simply failed in the practical aspects.

ymmv

[GinoDelG]

I have a solent on a roller furler. Before that the staysail was removable and we never used it. As long as the solent is flying the Genny tacks easily except for very light winds. Just tack the Genny first.

[Arthurwg]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

we have lost a lot of sailor knowlege about handling cuttters. I reccomend you read the bible on this subject "Further Offshore". it was written between the 50's into the 60's after the war and describes the pre rule setups and industry changes. it covers cutters well. based on it the front sails on a cutter are supposed to be much larger than most have. more like a large 110-130% jib top and a 130-150% stay sail genoa. combined this sail area is over 180%, remember the mast is further aft. my boat came with the standard selftacking 90% working staysail. not overly impressive and good for a lazy cruise.the new race boats use jib tops and staysails now.

Funny you mention this wonderful book, I just ordered a copy from Abe Books to replace the one I had years ago. Laurent Giles was a fabulous yacht designer in his day. A must read, IMHO.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mystic38

I have a sloop and the crew count is pretty much two.

My 1993 Sabre 38 mkII has a quite powerful main with 3 reefs and added a solent rig with a detachable inner forestay and a hank on 85% "staysail" for offshore...anticipating close to balance with the third reef.

The inner forestay needs to be detachable otherwise the 135% genoa simply will not pass, and so the staysail must be hank on.

When you think about it... The times offshore that conditions dictated the disposal of a partly furled genoa and the raising of the staysail, seas & wind will be such that you may not be inclined to go forward and deal with setting the forestay, securing the genoa sheets, hanking on the staysail and rigging the lines. I have done this once.

The inner forestay and staysail are now off the boat

I instead purchased a 105% jib to complement the 135% and simply commit to one or the other before i depart. The 105% is a great balance depending on conditions with the 2nd or 3rd reef so it is a better overall sail plan from effectivity & operation.

So..the solent rig that i was enamoured with was not a well thought out plan on my part...it simply failed in the practical aspects.

ymmv

I think this is an excellent decision. In wind over 10 you should be fine. Under that wind speed you'll be light, but so what.

If the wind builds you'll be reefing the main.

When even that is too much you can roll in a few turns on the jib.

After that, roll the jib all the way in and sail with the double or triple reefed main. (Motor assist?)