David vs Goliath

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by swagman

This is beginning to remind me of the one chap swinging his arms in the opposite rythm to all others on the parade ground.
He too always argued he was the one who is right.

You mean like that chap Galileo?
Yes it's always easier to go along with the crowd - requires no thought at all. But the forums would be pretty darn boring if we all agreed, wouldn't they? Oh come on, why won't you participate in my one (singular) hypothetical situation? Afraid you'll discover the world's not flat, after all?

Kevin

I'm afraid your post-script has me baffled.

[swagman]

Hi Kev,
No postcript was intended. I started to respond to your last message and then realised (once more) I was being sucked back in.
So made my message more pointed. Simply forgot to delete the rest. Too late now to edit and remove the words. Apologies for any confusion.
Now absolutely - Definately - And with no retractions.
I'm out of this thread.
JOHN

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

So you turned to starboard while a large ship turned port into you.
Stand By turned to starboard while Maltese Falcon turned port into them.

Per radar, the ferry and I started out on a direct head-on collision course, ferry slightly on my port side. I turned starboard to avoid collision. He turned port.

I didn't understand the SB-MF situation to be similar.

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You haven't answered the question. Commonsense does (doesn't?) need to be legislated twice; it's already in Colregs - and you either have it, or you don't. A skipper that doesn't have the sense to follow the existing rules is hardly likely to follow another rule that says "use common sense".

First, you purposely distort the NZ rule to suit your own purposes - it says nothing about "use common sense" nor even infers such.

Second, it is much easier for pleasure boats people to understand one rule that says keep out of the way of ships than it is for them to work their way through the entanglements of the ColRegs during an encounter with a big vessel where a number of clauses might need to be considered. Even professional mariners can have such difficulties at such times as the courts will attest.

Third, experienced small boats people (and I know there are a number here who have been closely associated with small boats all of their lives and I suspect some of those are trying to pass on some learning from that experience to you) seem to me to have a similar attitude to experienced cyclists. It doesn't matter what the road laws say if you get close to cars and trucks it pays to keep out of their way as much as possible. If either the cyclist or the other vehicles make a mistake the cyclist is sure to end up being the one worst off by far. And people do make mistakes, collision prevention rules or not.

It doesn't mean that there should be no road laws as you said about the ColRegs in an earlier post to fob of some trying to help you understand this point of view. It just means that when it comes to small boats mixing it with larger much bigger ones, and usually much faster in the case of the small boat being a sail boat, then the safe approach for the small boat is to put itself in the position, when possible, that there is no need for the ColRegs because there is no encounter.

If you don't accept that or understand that then heaven help you. It was to assist in protecting such people that the NZ legislation was written.

I see that you are a naval officer and that your profile infers you are starting out in small pleasure boats (and we all here have started out at some time). Perhaps you should consider whether you have yet made the transition from a military environment driven by rules, commands and discipline, probably mostly in larger vessels, to understanding the much looser one of mostly amateurs in small vessels sailing casually for pleasure.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

So you turned to starboard while a large ship turned port into you.
Stand By turned to starboard while Maltese Falcon turned port into them.

I haven't followed all of this thread, but I have seen the photo's. As far as I can see, Stand By hit the STARBOARD side of Falcon. Surely if Falcon was turning to port, it was AWAY from them, not into them?

[dacust]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I haven't followed all of this thread, but I have seen the photo's. As far as I can see, Stand By hit the STARBOARD side of Falcon. Surely if Falcon was turning to port, it was AWAY from them, not into them?

Ah, you're making the mistake of looking at the information in front of you.

There are MANY speculations in here. I think this kinda describes one of them (albeit with my own sarcastic interpretation ) SB was approaching from head on, a few points off the port of MF. SB turned to starboard to pass port to port. But somehow, the captain of MF managed to turn that big ole huge boat to port directly into poor SBs path. Hey, I warned you I was going to be sarcastic...

And people, please don't slam me for this, it was meant to be kinda humorous, and definitely not an attack on any particular person. But I gotta admit, I partially mean it as well.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Christian Van H

The competent sailors aboard SB were simply blinded by our solar orbs reflections off a really nice LP paint job on MF's hull!

It was a conspiracy. The evildoers made him do it.

Originally Posted by swagman

Kevin,
This is beginning to remind me of the one chap swinging his arms in the opposite rythm to all others on the parade ground.
He too always argued he was the one who is right.

To be fair there are a number of us besides Kevin who are swinging their arms in the "wrong" direction.

But as Chief Engineer said - this puppy has been beat to meat and most of us are no longer debating. We are at what I call "the last word" phase of the topic.

No one will change thier mind about it at this point.

[Pelagic]

Good explanation MidLandOne, but I feel probably wasted on Lodesman, who has been trained to go in…full guns blazing…with the knowledge that God and Colregs are on his side.

Ironically I have found the various world Navies to be some of the worst at ignoring rules for civilian vessels…… but then again, they didn’t train them for a sense of caution!


I'm done with this thread to

[BassAckwards]

I hope someone will post any updates they come across. I for one would like to know how this ends. (Dont say it; I know; 4-5 years down the road)

[Lodesman]

44cruisingcat,

Vessel to port turns starboard and vessel to starboard turns port. This scenario played out by powered vessels in a crossing situation caused enough accidents to warrant its own rule:

17(c) A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.

dacust,

Why be sarcastic? Do you not believe large vessels are capable of turning? FWIW Falcon likely has a 400-500 yard diameter turning circle.

Dan,

Solidarity!

Pelagic,

If you don't have the guts to insult me in the first person, then I really have nothing to say to you.


Kevin

[Christian Van H]

Pelagic, apparently you are the lucky one. You always did know the right thing to say...