Departing Slip Bow Out with a Strong Quartering Headwind

[EmeraldCoastSailor]

Backing into the wind and letting bow blow down is the safest move on my boat (no bow thruster). It does require a bit of speed but once I get the rudder to bite I can back off on the throttle or shift to neutral and go very slow under control. Your boat might be different.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Dockhead said:

"Someone complained about the idea of "goosing" -- he misses the point -- it's not high speed, it's ACCELERATION. To accelerate as quickly as possible through the range where there's no rudder authority. Once you've got rudder authority, you cut the throttle."

Thank you Dockhead - that is PRECISELY the point :-)!

I had carefully preface what I said in #10 with "What I would do" and pointed out that it takes confidence. I also said the following:

"The moment the line is aboard, you, being on the helm, "goose her". Get her out of the slip, stern clear of the end of the slip, before the wind has a chance to overcome the boat's inertia, and you want to get to a speed where the rudders have authority just as fast as you possibly can! Probably an elapsed time of about 20 seconds.

"Now, the moment the stern is clear: "Hard a-starboard! Full a stern"! Assisted by the wind, the boat will align herself with the centre of the fairway. The moment before she does: "Midships!""

Indeed. Just one small quibble -- I wouldn't do it "the instant the stern is clear". Carry on until you almost reach the windward row of berths, then you have room to maneuver at your leisure without getting blown down onto other boats.

You modulate the throttle so you lose way just as you near the windward berths, and you will again lose rudder authority. BUT -- you've set yourself up to let the wind do your work for you. Just relax and let it do its thing and blow you off. No point in steering at this moment.

Wait a moment before going into astern. The bow will blow off and you will rotate around the right way. Then astern with some throttle -- by now, no goosing required -- and you will naturally fall onto your course in astern, out of the marina.

One of the most important things to keep in mind in harbor maneuvers is to play chess with the wind -- think ahead and get yourself in position so the wind is working with you and not against.

Here is a case when the master of a big cruise ship got exactly that thing wrong: https://forum.gcaptain.com/t/report-...harbor/69307/5

He turned the ship in the wrong place -- just where he would have to be forcing the bow up through the wind to avoid shoals. Exactly the opposite of what you want, and he came within 10 meters of putting that huge cruise ship aground as a result. The analogy here is to the windward vs. leeward row of boats. Don't be like that cruise ship captain. Get up to the windward row so that you have room to blow off.

[skipperpete]

I hadn’t realised that undocking could be a controversial issue, sorry if I offended you Trentepieds and I fully recognise that your post defined what works for you, my clumsy point was that it doesn’t work for everyone and the consequences of it not working need consideration. Near me right now are many yachts that have twin roller furlers at the bow and two yachts with 3 and given the distance between the rows of berths, getting out of a berth in calm weather can be challenging but with a bit of breeze across a roller furler, the odds against a predictable smooth exit increase dramatically. A real life incident in a Sydney marina (clippers anchorage in “coal and candle creek”) perfectly demonstrated how badly things can turn out if things go wrong performing a crosswind bow first exit. A 45 foot motor cruiser left a berth exactly as in the illustration but as he moved forward the boat alongside restricted the stern swing….. at this point the exit should have been abandoned but the helmsman tried the full power blip and collided with the anchor of a big yacht on the opposite finger. At this point, instead of accepting failure he powered up again and smashed broadside into the bows of the yachts, the anchors took out all the stbd side windows and injured the terrified wife and children sheltering in the saloon. I was one of about 30 people helplessly witnessing the disaster and one of the 5 people who assisted the injured kids and extricated the motor cruiser impaled on the anchors. Every time I do a crosswind berthing or exit the memory of that incident lingers still. Peace.

[TrentePieds]

Nah, SkipperPete - you know it takes a lot more than that to offend me, and you haven't :-0)!

I was amused and gratified that Dockhead came in behind me, and this thread seems to me to have turned into what in the American lexicon is called a "teaching moment" for any of our members that haven't yet worked up the brass to do these kinds of maneuvers with fortitude.

But I also acknowledge your warning that any responsible skipper must know when to abort, and, furthermore, that any responsible skipper must in his determination of strategy include a strategy for staying safe when and if an abort is required! Sometimes that means don't go out at all :-)

What I said, i.e. the strategy I chose to expound, was based on a careful consideration of relative distances shown in that excellent aerial shot the OP provided (including the wind direction) and on what he had said about his boat. In other words, I did, within the limitations of HolyMotherNet, what I do going aboard ANY boat - TP or any other boat - in preparation for departure.

To some it may seem like over the top that I actually teach people the time-honoured steering and engine orders, even in a baby boat like TP, so I can stand in the companionway and con her perfectly safely while MyBeloved (or anybody else who has been properly taught) is on the helm.

It's a lovely two-way street: Skipper develops confidence in the crew and the crew develops confidence in the skipper :-)

MyBeloved had never set foot in any kinda boat 'til long after retirement when she and I got together. You shoulda seen her glow the first time we pulled away from a fuel barge "the proper way", and some amatoor on the barge said "Boy- those guys have a system!"

TP

[Statistical]

-Let the wind knock the bow down to starboard, and then BACK out the fairway

Given you had the room I would do this. Fighting the wind is always dicey. Once (mostly) parallel to the wind it is fine.

[Phyrcooler]

I’m guessing you have something like a modern Beneteau 34.1. My boat is a similar modern design, a bit larger than the OP’s, with all its advantages and disadvantages. Fairly flat hull bottom, shallow forefoot. Slab hull sides. Bow blows off easily and quickly. Twin, wide spaced rudders. No prop wash to help “goose” over the stern. Sail drive. No prop walk in reverse. These “new” boats are the first time I’ve ever thought a boat under 42’ would be better off with a bow thruster.

EmeraldCoastSailor has it right. My experience is as follows: Plan all moves BEFORE trying to execute. Obviously critical are wind and current. Current will move the whole boat. Wind effects the bow more/first. The bow WILL blow off. Plan on it at slow speeds - like docking. So treat it like a wind vane - pivoting from the stern. It’s easier to reverse. Back into the wind when possible. Just hang on to the wheel firmly. My rudders are not completely counter balanced, so if you let go in reverse, they will SLAM one direction or the other. DON’T let this happen.

In the picture example provided - if you’ve backed into your slip, pull out to the right letting the bow blow downwind. Then start backing down the fairway where you want to go. Easy peasy with planning. Coming back in just make sure you maintain momentum and thus steerage.

Also, without a bow thruster (I don’t have one either), learn to use spring lines and properly placed fenders for getting off a dock - even single handed.

[TrentePieds]

Speaking of fortitude, and of having regard to the wind, I fell over this a few days ago. Once you commit to this maneuver, there is no way back :-)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfnu...torRoaldOpsett

TP

[meirriba]

How about getting out in reverse. The bow falls with thecwind and instead of fighting it you just motor in reverse. You'll need to know how to countermand the propwalk, but this is easy...

[Don C L]

Having had to do this, with a boat that does not reverse as well as yours, I will pile on with the option 2, go out in reverse. If you go out and can't bring the bow up in time, you have just goosed the engine and rammed the boats ahead of you. Go for the least expensive option.

[catsketcher]

I have read through the thread and I acknowledge the experience of all here, but I don't get it. What is wrong with the midships spring from midships to a dock cleat at the end of the finger? Maybe even a port stern spring?

For 22 years I had to get a single engine catamaran into marinas. If anyone is worried about a mono with twin rudders then please don't try to get a light single engined cat into and out of a marina berth. We usually avoided marinas but spent a few months in a couple in Townsville and Coffs Harbour. I used to dream about the way monos steer at low speeds - you guys have it easy.

The Coffs one was extra tight and once we left in a building southerly straight down the fingers. There was no way we could have built up enough speed to get rudder control before we ploughed into the boats opposite. So we used the mid spring. It was beautiful. It was blowing about 15 by the time we left when we first used the spring technique - it worked so well it became standard repitoire and never caused anything but a feeling of surety and security. We used it whenever we could because it made turning parallel to the fairway impossible to get wrong.

In the example the OP describes the mid spring would be a great idea. If you don't like needing two people set it up with two pulleys at the side deck and BOTH lines led back to one wrap around one winch and one cleat on one side at the cockpit.

Then power straight out, get pulled around by the spring into the wind, you don't even need to turn the wheel ( and when pointing the right way) release ONE end of the line from the winch and quickly pull in the other. Off you go, you don't need a crew. Then again, if you did want to use the crew, put them on the helm and be about 3 metres away, you will have gone through what to do (Go straight and keep the throttle at the planned setting) and you can pull the spring out and be back at the helm in seconds.

I have two winches each side - so I would lead the lines back to both winches - one end each. Then if the line gets stuck you can flick off the other end and power away still.

Make sure you never use a line with a splice of any sort in the line. We used 12mm sheet rope but that can sink so we were quick on the retrieve. A nice piece of new silver rope would be fine - with whipped or cut ends. But make sure it has no twists - plaited floating rope would be good. If this was my marina berth I would probably tie a large 4wd low friction ring onto the cleat at the end of the finger to slip the spring through. Then I know the spring will run through it easily. I can take it off when tying the boat up at the end of the day.

When we used to do it my wife was at the spring cleat. She knew that if needed we would get rid of the line if it caught on the dock cleat. We thought it would be fine to get out of the harbour and anchor outside and come back in the dinghy and get the line, or call the marina and tell them you left a line. But turning into the wind is what springs do really well - like those old model planes on the end of two wires, you just turn on up into the wind there aint nowhere else you are going to go. Then let off at the correct moment and power away - easy as.

cheers

Phil

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I have read through the thread and I acknowledge the experience of all here, but I don't get it. What is wrong with the midships spring from midships to a dock cleat at the end of the finger? Maybe even a port stern spring?

For 22 years I had to get a single engine catamaran into marinas. If anyone is worried about a mono with twin rudders then please don't try to get a light single engined cat into and out of a marina berth. We usually avoided marinas but spent a few months in a couple in Townsville and Coffs Harbour. I used to dream about the way monos steer at low speeds - you guys have it easy.

The Coffs one was extra tight and once we left in a building southerly straight down the fingers. There was no way we could have built up enough speed to get rudder control before we ploughed into the boats opposite. So we used the mid spring. It was beautiful. It was blowing about 15 by the time we left when we first used the spring technique - it worked so well it became standard repitoire and never caused anything but a feeling of surety and security. We used it whenever we could because it made turning parallel to the fairway impossible to get wrong.

In the example the OP describes the mid spring would be a great idea. If you don't like needing two people set it up with two pulleys at the side deck and BOTH lines led back to one wrap around one winch and one cleat on one side at the cockpit.

Then power straight out, get pulled around by the spring into the wind, you don't even need to turn the wheel ( and when pointing the right way) release ONE end of the line from the winch and quickly pull in the other. Off you go, you don't need a crew. Then again, if you did want to use the crew, put them on the helm and be about 3 metres away, you will have gone through what to do (Go straight and keep the throttle at the planned setting) and you can pull the spring out and be back at the helm in seconds.

I have two winches each side - so I would lead the lines back to both winches - one end each. Then if the line gets stuck you can flick off the other end and power away still.

Make sure you never use a line with a splice of any sort in the line. We used 12mm sheet rope but that can sink so we were quick on the retrieve. A nice piece of new silver rope would be fine - with whipped or cut ends. But make sure it has no twists - plaited floating rope would be good. If this was my marina berth I would probably tie a large 4wd low friction ring onto the cleat at the end of the finger to slip the spring through. Then I know the spring will run through it easily. I can take it off when tying the boat up at the end of the day.

When we used to do it my wife was at the spring cleat. She knew that if needed we would get rid of the line if it caught on the dock cleat. We thought it would be fine to get out of the harbour and anchor outside and come back in the dinghy and get the line, or call the marina and tell them you left a line. But turning into the wind is what springs do really well - like those old model planes on the end of two wires, you just turn on up into the wind there aint nowhere else you are going to go. Then let off at the correct moment and power away - easy as.

cheers

Phil

Yes of course, but most barely manage to get their dock lines and fenders in so using springs for maneuvering is way over their heads

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I have read through the thread and I acknowledge the experience of all here, but I don't get it. What is wrong with the midships spring from midships to a dock cleat at the end of the finger? Maybe even a port stern spring?

For 22 years I had to get a single engine catamaran into marinas. If anyone is worried about a mono with twin rudders then please don't try to get a light single engined cat into and out of a marina berth. We usually avoided marinas but spent a few months in a couple in Townsville and Coffs Harbour. I used to dream about the way monos steer at low speeds - you guys have it easy.

The Coffs one was extra tight and once we left in a building southerly straight down the fingers. There was no way we could have built up enough speed to get rudder control before we ploughed into the boats opposite. So we used the mid spring. It was beautiful. It was blowing about 15 by the time we left when we first used the spring technique - it worked so well it became standard repitoire and never caused anything but a feeling of surety and security. We used it whenever we could because it made turning parallel to the fairway impossible to get wrong.

In the example the OP describes the mid spring would be a great idea. If you don't like needing two people set it up with two pulleys at the side deck and BOTH lines led back to one wrap around one winch and one cleat on one side at the cockpit.

Then power straight out, get pulled around by the spring into the wind, you don't even need to turn the wheel ( and when pointing the right way) release ONE end of the line from the winch and quickly pull in the other. Off you go, you don't need a crew. Then again, if you did want to use the crew, put them on the helm and be about 3 metres away, you will have gone through what to do (Go straight and keep the throttle at the planned setting) and you can pull the spring out and be back at the helm in seconds.

I have two winches each side - so I would lead the lines back to both winches - one end each. Then if the line gets stuck you can flick off the other end and power away still.

Make sure you never use a line with a splice of any sort in the line. We used 12mm sheet rope but that can sink so we were quick on the retrieve. A nice piece of new silver rope would be fine - with whipped or cut ends. But make sure it has no twists - plaited floating rope would be good. If this was my marina berth I would probably tie a large 4wd low friction ring onto the cleat at the end of the finger to slip the spring through. Then I know the spring will run through it easily. I can take it off when tying the boat up at the end of the day.

When we used to do it my wife was at the spring cleat. She knew that if needed we would get rid of the line if it caught on the dock cleat. We thought it would be fine to get out of the harbour and anchor outside and come back in the dinghy and get the line, or call the marina and tell them you left a line. But turning into the wind is what springs do really well - like those old model planes on the end of two wires, you just turn on up into the wind there aint nowhere else you are going to go. Then let off at the correct moment and power away - easy as.

cheers

Phil

Is the point of your spring line to get the bow through the wind?

If so, it would need to be quite a long one not to prang something with the stern as you come around. Also if you have a snag or any issue with getting the line back aboard you can be in big trouble (or you lose your rope).

I think the question is whether you can get on enough way to steer the bow through the wind in the room you have available, against the wind you've got at that moment. In my boat it would be OK, at least up to 30-ish knots, but I have 100hp and a 10hp bow thruster which could give a little extra push if needed, so OP's case could be different.

I would think it would be ok on the OP's boat too, but only he will know that.

If NOT, then I don't think a spring line will be any better, because the spring line will turn you at 0.5 knots or whatever as you leave, but will NOT keep the bow from blowing off after you release it. It will be worse, actually, because you will be in a posture without way on and no rudder authority, longer.

Motoring straight out instead of using a spring line, maybe steering into the wind as much as you can as soon as the rudders start to bite, but NOT through it, the bow blowing off will be no problem, as then you would just abort going out in ahead, and go to Plan B, let the bow come down, and back out. BUT -- you would need to accelerate snappily to 2 or 3 knots to avoid being stuck near leeward boats with no way on. That's where Trent Pieds' "goosing" comes into play.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes of course, but most barely manage to get their dock lines and fenders in so using springs for maneuvering is way over their heads

I use springs for maneuvering all the time, but I would not use one in this particular case.

Because the spring will turn the bow into the wind, but will prevent you from having any way on. You will then be stuck dead in the water with a row of boats just to leeward, trying to get your spring line back on board. Having the bow right into the wind (if you manage that) will reduce the rotating force, but won't eliminate it, so you'll be blown off again soon enough in any case, and because of futzing with the spring line, you're way behind the curve with getting way on and achieving rudder authority. I think it's a recipe for crashing into the leeward boats.

In this situation, I would prioritize getting way on as quickly as possible; the direction is not that important here as he has room to windward in both directions. In case he fails to get enough way on to keep from getting blown down to starboard, that is not a problem as he has plenty of room to then turn and back out. Which many in this thread have proposed as Plan A, which is a perfectly good plan.

[rslifkin]

I agree, no spring for this. It would be fine with a single rudder, but with the twin rudders it'll take too long to release the spring and accelerate the boat enough to get steerage. That boat should steer well enough in reverse to back out without much trouble, so that's the more reliably executed option. I've seen it done plenty of times at our home marina without issue. The sailors that try to get the bow up into a strong wind often get themselves into more trouble.

[Auklet]

I back into (or toward) the wind often; whenever there is not enough room to get sufficient weigh on to bring the bow up. I have sail drive which permits the boat to back up straight, but I still have to pay close attention to the back-up course I’m making b/c the wind is not always directly astern. It’s harder to steer and keep the course when backing, especially if moving fast. Yes, the bow will blow down to match the wind but if it is not dead astern, you’re either speeding up to straighten it out or going out at an angle to the fairway centerline, etc. For the problem at hand, I’d get the bow out past the centerline; power hard in reverse to get the boat moving, then come to the course out. You need room for the bow to fall off toward the leeward slips while getting up your initial sternway from what I see.