Departing Slip Bow Out with a Strong Quartering Headwind

[catsketcher]

I have done this manouvre lots of times - it works well. On reflection I probably stated the line length incorrectly - we usually had about 24m of doubled line out (x 2 because it is doubled over at a distance of about 12m). You need to clear the finger and then some.

But I am on a 4000kg cat which is much lighter than many monos on thread. She accelerates forwards and sideways so quickly - my cat needs to burst out of the pen or she slips to leeward. (Cats have a HUGE amount of windage compared to underwater area whereas most monos are about 1:1 windage to uderwater plan area so they don't drift sideways when going slow - it's one reason some cats can't tack well) Getting up to 2 knots on a 4000kg cat is done in about one boatlength, but on most monos you don't need to do that. You won't slip to leeward fast at all so you can motor out much more slowly - the speed is dictated mostly by how fast you drift sideways as you don't want to hit the leeward boat sharing your finger space - a heavy pilot cutter should be able to inch out. I have to go fast because cats accelerate so quickly - sideways and forwards - but heavy monos should be able to crawl out. You guys HAVE to go slow. My 4000kg cat is not going to rip out the dock cleat - but if a heavy mono does 3 knots it could get nasty - go only as fast as you need to to get out of the finger withouth hitting the boat to leeward, no need to go faster.

As Jedi says on a mono you should be able to go as slow as you want. Letting yourself drift to leeward once free of the boat sharing the marina berth to leeward is beneficial for turning. So again, mono guys can gently chug out of the finger, drift a little to leeward and then start rounding slowly on the spring.

If you are worried about things going wrong get ready to release BOTH ends. Doing this is a bit like a gybe in breeze. Get everything squared away well before the event - have everyone very well aware of their job and plan it carefully. Then nothing seems to go wrong. As for the video, it is the best I could find - it shows the principle of using a spring to turn - but I don't use a stern spring. I don't take video of myself and I am surprised there is not a video of someone doing this. But again you can be really slow as you get close to the eye of the wind - once into the wind, the spring has done its job so you could be almost stalled at this point.

Don't get hung up on the speed - that is for my cat - you could do it at whatever speed you like to dial in. Just remember to start slipping the line when the head of the boat gets close to the eye of the wind. So you should be able to really back off the speed (and load) at this important time.

My go to nowaways is to come into my local jetty (which is directly to windward in the local seabreeze) come in forwards and then spin around stern to and then go astern into the wind (where I can see the jetty really easily from the helm and I have steps on the transoms of the cat). I get some strange looks as I do. Then I get really close - about 20cm off the jetty (because I can see so well from the helm -juggling throttle and gear) step off onto the jetty and tie the stern line onto the jetty with 4 metres of slack. Pull her in, jump back on and motor ahead. The boat then comes around on the arc and gently comes into the parallel to the jetty from springing the stern line with a beam wind trying to blow her off. Super easy and again really calm and absolutly dialable - I can get the boat to just kiss the jetty. I love the spring to bring my boat in and out of tricky spots, it makes singlehanded docking super easy - but you have to have good stern access.

I used to come in bow in, be unable to accurately determine the gap to the jetty at the bows and then call out to my wife on the bow to jump the gap. I couldn't tell the distance properly and the bows would want to blow away. She didn't want to jump a dangerous distance and I didn't want to come in
too close and bang the bow. It was dumb and dangerous.

She then asked my why I didn't come in astern. I said no one does that. She said her colleague Mark did and I then sailed with Mark, watched him do it in perfect control and with absolutely no angst or worry, gave myself an uppercut for being stupid and forgetting the spring, and now come in backwards and do the spring all the time.

cheers

Phil

[TrentePieds]

Yes, that video is rather off topic. It depicts an entirely different and much simpler situation. Therefore the OP will not be able to learn from it anything that is particularly apposite to the question he asked.

For post after post the thread has failed to take cognizance of the OP's particular situation which he showed most handsomely in his drone shot of his vessel in her slip, a shot on which he had drawn in the wind direction. He was also concerned about the wind strength, as well he might be given that wind he called "a quartering wind on the bow" (IIRC). Dockhead picked him up on that, rightly pointing out that that is an oxymoron. Dockhead is always kind. I might have pointed out that there is no such thing :-)

What you would do in a catamaran is not really relevant since catamarans are a different breedacat requiring handling that differs from the way you handle a mono.

As I see it, every one of us Sunday sailors need to develop skills and techniques that work when we are single-handing. That means having no crew (whether there IS no crew or the crew has been stood down), and that means using no lines since we would have no crew to handle them while we ourselves must needs be at the steering station. Furthermore, lines have an unpleasant affinity for spinning propellers (wonder why?).

I, meself, only commit to an evolution if I am confident that I can execute it all by my lonesome. I do a proper set-up. Then I stand down my crew with a suggestion that they watch and remember. Then I do the job.

What happens after that depends on the purpose of the outing. If it's just a pleasure sail, I hand over to the crew as soon as there is no longer a risk of collision. Then they can muck about and experiment all they like. If it's a formal class, it gets quite structured because what students have a right to expect of their instructor is that he can give them a rigorous explanation of, and reason for, every element of the evolution.

TP

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

As I see it, every one of us Sunday sailors need to develop skills and techniques that work when we are single-handing. That means having no crew (whether there IS no crew or the crew has been stood down), and that means using no lines since we would have no crew to handle them while we ourselves must needs be at the steering station. Furthermore, lines have an unpleasant affinity for spinning propellers (wonder why?).

I am effectively single-handed and deploy spring lines from the cockpit with one hand on the wheel. I have 12 plait spring lines with bungee loops sewn in to the spliced eye to take the boat hook to make it easy.



My regular working lines are all cut to a length that is a foot too short to reach the prop from the cleat they "live" on. I have longer lines in the laz for situations that require them, that can be deployed with particular care, when needed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

. . . As I see it, every one of us Sunday sailors need to develop skills and techniques that work when we are single-handing. That means having no crew (whether there IS no crew or the crew has been stood down), and that means using no lines since we would have no crew to handle them while we ourselves must needs be at the steering station. Furthermore, lines have an unpleasant affinity for spinning propellers (wonder why?).. .

I single hand a fair bit and berthing can be a significant challenge due to the distance between my center cockpit helm and any cleat. Going out is usually OK but coming in the only way to do it is to get to the berth with all way off so that the boat stays there long enough for you to climb out of the cockpit and lasso a cleat.


If the wind is blowing you on this is not too bad, but if the wind is blowing you OFF this is a real trick. Basically what I do is to come in extra hard and do a Captain Ron type turn at the last moment, so that the boat has a lot of momentum moving sideways, which will give me a few seconds to get a line on before being blown off. In a strong wind I count on being blown straight off, and I rig a line doubled back to an electric primary winch, so that once the line is on, I can winch the boat in, or rather pull the slack out as I work the boat in with rudder and motor.


In the Baltic we often have those infernal RINGS instead of cleats, which can't be lassoed. For that I use a mooring ball grabber but you have to get closer and you need a bit more time than lassoing a proper cleat. Who invented those things?



I have never attempted to spring off the bow single handed. It could be done, conceivably, but you really want crew actively handling the line AND the fenders, so I just don't do it. I have sprung off the stern single handed but that's a real trick which I wouldn't do except in a dead calm. If anything snags or goes wrong with a spring line while single handed you are in a world of hurt.


Not to even speak about ropes in props -- shudder.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I single hand a fair bit and berthing can be a significant challenge due to the distance between my center cockpit helm and any cleat. Going out is usually OK but coming in the only way to do it is to get to the berth with all way off so that the boat stays there long enough for you to climb out of the cockpit and lasso a cleat.

If the wind is blowing you on this is not too bad, but if the wind is blowing you OFF this is a real trick. Basically what I do is to come in extra hard and do a Captain Ron type turn at the last moment, so that the boat has a lot of momentum moving sideways, which will give me a few seconds to get a line on before being blown off. In a strong wind I count on being blown straight off, and I rig a line doubled back to an electric primary winch, so that once the line is on, I can winch the boat in, or rather pull the slack out as I work the boat in with rudder and motor.

In the Baltic we often have those infernal RINGS instead of cleats, which can't be lassoed. For that I use a mooring ball grabber but you have to get closer and you need a bit more time than lassoing a proper cleat. Who invented those things?

I have never attempted to spring off the bow single handed. It could be done, conceivably, but you really want crew actively handling the line AND the fenders, so I just don't do it. I have sprung off the stern single handed but that's a real trick which I wouldn't do except in a dead calm. If anything snags or goes wrong with a spring line while single handed you are in a world of hurt.

Not to even speak about ropes in props -- shudder.

You don’t throw a grappling hook at them?

[Jammer]

I myself reserve the grappling hook for bull rails.


Those rings are awful and usually too weak to be useful, difficulty of lassoing notwithstanding.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You don’t throw a grappling hook at them?

Hmm, that could be an idea.


Every self-respect pirate has a grappling hook at the ready, right?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I myself reserve the grappling hook for bull rails.

Those rings are awful and usually too weak to be useful, difficulty of lassoing notwithstanding.

Yes, they are awful.


But if I had a Euro for every understrength dock cleat or ring I've ever seen, I could buy a new boat.


I actually know the guy who owns the company which sells most of the dock elements in the Nordic countries. So all those rings come from him. I read him the riot act about it, but he was unmoved -- said that's what the marinas want.

[Dr. D]

What is with all the hate for twin rudders and sail drive? My boat of six years has that arrangement and I have no issues due to it. (Some issues due to stupidity, but that is another topic.)

My boat has way on in reverse with barely 0.5 kts, and full control by 1.0 kts. No prop walk or prop wash? Good! I don't miss them at all.

To the OP: Yes, go forward and let the bow fall off with the wind. Just before it is pointing with the wind give a strong burst of reverse, then settle to idle reverse, or a bit more depending on the wind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dr. D

What is with all the hate for twin rudders and sail drive? My boat of six years has that arrangement and I have no issues due to it. (Some issues due to stupidity, but that is another topic.)

My boat has way on in reverse with barely 0.5 kts, and full control by 1.0 kts. No prop walk or prop wash? Good! I don't miss them at all.

To the OP: Yes, go forward and let the bow fall off with the wind. Just before it is pointing with the wind give a strong burst of reverse, then settle to idle reverse, or a bit more depending on the wind.

People dislike this because you can't use propwash on the rudder.


But -- and this may be your case -- if you have high aspect spade rudders, they may produce lift at quite low speeds, which mitigates this partially. A bow thruster helps too.



You will certainly have prop WALK -- that's not eliminated by sail drive or twin rudders. But prop walk, if it's not too much, is a great benefit in harbor maneuvers. My prop kicks to port, so I almost always berth starboard-to, and reverse out of a alongsides berth as much as possible. Piece of cake with the prop kicking the stern out.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Dr. D

What is with all the hate for twin rudders and sail drive? My boat of six years has that arrangement and I have no issues due to it. (Some issues due to stupidity, but that is another topic.)

My boat has way on in reverse with barely 0.5 kts, and full control by 1.0 kts. No prop walk or prop wash? Good! I don't miss them at all.

To the OP: Yes, go forward and let the bow fall off with the wind. Just before it is pointing with the wind give a strong burst of reverse, then settle to idle reverse, or a bit more depending on the wind.

Neither or a saildrive or twin rudders inherently removes prop walk as a factor. Depending on the prop you have and what's near it underwater you may have more or less of it than some boats, but there is always some.

Lack of prop wash over the rudder is a huge disadvantage in close quarters maneuvering though. It requires you to be actually moving to turn the boat or move the stern with the rudder. And the inability to direct your forward thrust also makes use of spring lines (particularly to hold the boat against a dock) much less flexible, as if the line isn't placed perfectly for straight forward thrust to do what you need, then you're SOL and can't just compensate by turning the rudder. A bow thruster is practically required equipment in that scenario.

Personally, I wouldn't own a boat that doesn't have a rudder directly behind the prop (or 2 rudders and 2 props).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Neither or a saildrive or twin rudders inherently removes prop walk as a factor. Depending on the prop you have and what's near it underwater you may have more or less of it than some boats, but there is always some.

Lack of prop wash over the rudder is a huge disadvantage in close quarters maneuvering though. It requires you to be actually moving to turn the boat or move the stern with the rudder. And the inability to direct your forward thrust also makes use of spring lines (particularly to hold the boat against a dock) much less flexible, as if the line isn't placed perfectly for straight forward thrust to do what you need, then you're SOL and can't just compensate by turning the rudder. A bow thruster is practically required equipment in that scenario.

Personally, I wouldn't own a boat that doesn't have a rudder directly behind the prop (or 2 rudders and 2 props).

What he said


Now 2 rudders and 2 props -- that's a horse of a different color. Differntial thrust gives you ALL KINDS of options.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Dr. D

What is with all the hate for twin rudders and sail drive?

If the rudder or rudders aren't behind the prop, it takes away options, as rslifkin described in detail upthread. And, for what benefit?

I like having a (modified) fin keel, conventional inboard drive, and a spade rudder right behind the prop. And minimal windage on the bow. Together this provides a great deal of control in tight quarters whether in the marina, under a bridge, in a narrow channel, or in a lock. In situations like the OP's, it can make the difference in whether it is safe to leave the harbor on a particular day.

These handling benefits are easily overlooked in discussions about alternative designs, whether older full keel designs or newer more novel placement of the prop and rudder(s).

[Dr. D]

For the last few posters:

A sail drive has far less prop walk than a shaft drive, nearly zero. The lesser factor is the prop is deeper in the water. The greater factor is the prop is much closer to the point of rotation of the hull. What little force is produced is pushing the boat sideways, not pushing the stern one way or the other.

As far as prop wash, I agree it does help in very tight situations. However, the myth that dual rudders and sail drive can't maneuver until the boat is moving several knots just isn't so.

My normal procedure is backing into my slip. After several hundred times doing this, I know that the boat responds well to idle in reverse. Not as good as a boat with shaft drive and a single rudder, but well enough.

[parkstone bay]

First of all - and this is 20/20 hindsight - I suspect you hadn't reviewed the situation beforehand, and hadn't got a plan B even in the back of your mind, so when things went wrong, you literally didn't know what to do. (When I was a PB instructor, I always used to tell my students "all these yachts have wind indicators at the top of their masts. Why? To to help us powerboaters"). Having said that, for our berth in the UK we often get a similar scenario, though we berth bow inward, rather than outward. In these circumstances, no argument, we are already going back'ards, so come out blunt end first, let the bow blow off, and continue to go out astern until you have space to turn. But, you have to be confident with your sternboards, in your boat. Though, the stronger the breeze, the more the bow will blow off.