Docking - I made several mistakes

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

...Amongst other examples, many times in the Caribbean the dockhands would take the all important first spring line, refuse to put it on the cleat so that we could use it to bring ourselves alongside, and instead just walk around on the dock with the line in their hand saying "you're ok mon, keep coming mon"...

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

...Just happened to me this weekend. Coming in bow first (at harbormaster's request) to tie alongside with brisk wind over stern. New crew, literally "Minnesota nice". I told her not to throw the bowline first. Coming in slow, I tell the other marina guy to take the aft spring and make it off first. First dockworker tells her to toss the bowline and right over it goes, followed by the other guy handholding the spring...

Seems these type of dockhands are everywhere

[6227]

And this is why if I'm on a dock when someone's coming in and it appears they need assistance I ASK THEM if they'd like me to take their line. Sometimes they direct me how they want to tie up, more often they have NO clue and I just secure them appropriately. Then again, I know what I'm doing. They don't know that though so I always ask.

[Mekik]

Communication is important.

I was going to tie the boat Med style in Mytilini (Lesvos island, Greece) city harbour.
My friend dropped the anchor and laying the chain at the bow while I was approaching the quay backwards.
There was a guy nearby and I requested him to pass my stern line from a ring and give back to me.
Unfortunately, he did not understand English (he looked liked a Syrian refugee).
He passed the rope from the ring. Instead of giving the end back to me he was strongly pulling the boat towards the quay. When I gave more rev ahead, he was pulling with more force.
At the end, another person came nearby and he did what I requested.
We did not have a problem but had a funny Med style mooring that I remember.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Mekik

Communication is important.

I was going to tie the boat Med style in Mytilini (Lesvos island, Greece) city harbour.
My friend dropped the anchor and laying the chain at the bow while I was approaching the quay backwards.
There was a guy nearby and I requested him to pass my stern line from a ring and give back to me.
Unfortunately, he did not understand English (he looked liked a Syrian refugee).
He passed the rope from the ring. Instead of giving the end back to me he was strongly pulling the boat towards the quay. When I gave more rev ahead, he was pulling with more force.
At the end, another person came nearby and he did what I requested.
We did not have a problem but had a funny Med style mooring that I remember.

By looks, how would you be able to tell a Syrian from a Greek?

[Mekik]

Originally Posted by wingssail

By looks, how would you be able to tell a Syrian from a Greek?

Darker skin, looks, attitude. We know it by heart since we live with 4 million refugees in the same country (Turkey).

[LongRange]

Originally Posted by Mekik

Communication is important.

I was going to tie the boat Med style in Mytilini (Lesvos island, Greece) city harbour.
My friend dropped the anchor and laying the chain at the bow while I was approaching the quay backwards.
There was a guy nearby and I requested him to pass my stern line from a ring and give back to me.
Unfortunately, he did not understand English (he looked liked a Syrian refugee).
He passed the rope from the ring. Instead of giving the end back to me he was strongly pulling the boat towards the quay. When I gave more rev ahead, he was pulling with more force.
At the end, another person came nearby and he did what I requested.
We did not have a problem but had a funny Med style mooring that I remember.

The "give it back to me" part is sometimes a dilemma.

When crews seem inexperienced, to the point where boats around them were at more risk than they should have been during the reversing approach toward the dock, it can occasionally be better to tie off their stern ropes temporarily while they sort themselves out, rather than throw the rope back immediately and have them lose focus or even accidentally let out another 5 metres of rope during the attempt to secure it to the cleat.

In situations where there is strong wind on the side, and lazy lines are being used, I will ask to be tied off quickly on the windward stern side, and then power forward to keep my bow from falling off while the lazy line is being secured.

When a line is thrown without instructions, and conditions are challenging, I think it makes sense for the dockside help to hold it with several wraps around the bollard, pending further instructions from the boat.

When an instruction to pass the line back is clearly communicated, I think the dockside help should oblige, no matter the conditions, though I've seen situations where the owner of the next (threatened) boat is reluctant to let go.

Just thinking out out. I am not suggesting that the gentleman-of-unknown-ethnicity had considered your approach to be risky and therefore worthy of arresting as much as possible.

[sanibel sailor]

My mother, the English teacher, would point out that it was a statement of appearance, not of being.

[Montanan]

As to the "give it back to me" part, when there is a language impediment, one just needs to perfect the universality of your expressions.

Reference link:

https://tenor.com/view/tv-shows-step...e-gif-14859562

[JPA Cate]

Hello, Lone Range,

I'm really writing this for your good lady wife. Maybe she'll think about it. Here's how I see the background. Mostly, for her, her plan to have you to the docking has worked well, and has kept her from wanting to mess things up by learning to do it herself, ever. It will work until/if a time comes when, for some unknown reason, you are unable to do it. Most of those would also be medical emergencies, indeed, you might already be being medivacced (sp?), and herself left to berth the boat.

To me, because it is possible that she might HAVE TO do it some time, in order to keep the dream alive, she needs to practice it. If you and she can accept that premise, then, perhaps she'd like to hire someone to teach her. This has the advantage, for her, of dealing with a stranger, where --even if she's a perfectionist-- she will not also risk losing face with her dearly beloved. It also gets you off the hook of being responsible for her perceived failure, which would be a good idea. She needs to learn a new skill in an environment she perceives "safe". Some of the men here's wives are unwilling to make the effort to learn, and I think that is a great shame, and puts more burden on the guys.

If she's up for practice, and doesn't think she needs her own instructor, what you can do somewhere you're out at anchor, is use the dinghy to set up 4 balloons tied to rocks to keep them in place, and set up a pretend berth. Let her practice berthing. Upwind, side tie (place the balloons in a line), cross wind. Then one day, she'll get to try it over and over in a marina. But give her lots of space to learn how your particular boat will behave. Once she's moved to the marina stage, she can learn the use of the spring line. Then, she will learn to trust it, under the guidance of the teacher, whether that person is you or a trained instructor.

I'm one of the women who can't tolerate having my partner disappointed in me. I hate making mistakes (a real failing, I know), but if I don't meet his expectations, it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable for me. Enough to avoid docking, for instance.

Anyhow, I would most strongly encourage your wife, to grab the bull by the horns, and learn this skill. In the long run, I really think it will be better for both of you. She will feel much better when it is done, and when she can say that she will be able to let you go to the hospital straight away, and come see you after the "retirement home" is safe and sound. And at that point, the two of you share docking equally, so that each of you stays in practice.

Ann, 35 plus years a cruiser

On Edit

For side tying purposes (as opposed to med-mooring), we have made up a short spring line, roughly ten ft. long, with two large eyes, one for our midships cleat, and one for the dock cleat. I set up the bow and stern lines so that I can reach them from amidships. My job when I descend to the dock, all I have to do is place the spring line on the aft most cleat, and deal with the rest of the lines at my leisure. Only rarely do I trust someone to do it for me. The usual problem is that they stand right where I want to step off the boat, but there's always a concern that the "helper" won't follow instructions. We have a member here who was not best pleased at my demeanor, when I said, "Put this loop over that cleat! pointing to it." Pretty bossy. The urge to be polite is great, if you can do it, but if you really don't want to crash the boat, your concern is for its welfare, not the "helper." I need to work on saying, with a smile, "no, thank you". The problem is that often, people really want to help, and may be offended if not allowed to. However, clear instructions often work.

Ann

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

We have a member here who was not best pleased at my demeanor, when I said, "Put this loop over that cleat! pointing to it." Pretty bossy. The urge to be polite is great, if you can do it, but if you really don't want to crash the boat, your concern is for its welfare, not the "helper." I need to work on saying, with a smile, "no, thank you". The problem is that often, people really want to help, and may be offended if not allowed to. However, clear instructions often work.

ANN: "Could you step back, please, so I can get off?"
DOCKWALKER: Stares with dim, absent eyes
ANN: "Move. NOW."
*grin*

You could also muss your hair and assume a wild-eyed expression.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Hello, Lone Range,

I'm really writing this for your good lady wife. Maybe she'll think about it. Here's how I see the background. Mostly, for her, her plan to have you to the docking has worked well, and has kept her from wanting to mess things up by learning to do it herself, ever. It will work until/if a time comes when, for some unknown reason, you are unable to do it. Most of those would also be medical emergencies, indeed, you might already be being medivacced (sp?), and herself left to berth the boat.

To me, because it is possible that she might HAVE TO do it some time, in order to keep the dream alive, she needs to practice it. If you and she can accept that premise, then, perhaps she'd like to hire someone to teach her. This has the advantage, for her, of dealing with a stranger, where --even if she's a perfectionist-- she will not also risk losing face with her dearly beloved. It also gets you off the hook of being responsible for her perceived failure, which would be a good idea. She needs to learn a new skill in an environment she perceives "safe". Some of the men here's wives are unwilling to make the effort to learn, and I think that is a great shame, and puts more burden on the guys.

If she's up for practice, and doesn't think she needs her own instructor, what you can do somewhere you're out at anchor, is use the dinghy to set up 4 balloons tied to rocks to keep them in place, and set up a pretend berth. Let her practice berthing. Upwind, side tie (place the balloons in a line), cross wind. Then one day, she'll get to try it over and over in a marina. But give her lots of space to learn how your particular boat will behave. Once she's moved to the marina stage, she can learn the use of the spring line. Then, she will learn to trust it, under the guidance of the teacher, whether that person is you or a trained instructor.

I'm one of the women who can't tolerate having my partner disappointed in me. I hate making mistakes (a real failing, I know), but if I don't meet his expectations, it is EXTREMELY uncomfortable for me. Enough to avoid docking, for instance.

Anyhow, I would most strongly encourage your wife, to grab the bull by the horns, and learn this skill. In the long run, I really think it will be better for both of you. She will feel much better when it is done, and when she can say that she will be able to let you go to the hospital straight away, and come see you after the "retirement home" is safe and sound. And at that point, the two of you share docking equally, so that each of you stays in practice.

Ann, 35 plus years a cruiser

On Edit

For side tying purposes (as opposed to med-mooring), we have made up a short spring line, roughly ten ft. long, with two large eyes, one for our midships cleat, and one for the dock cleat. I set up the bow and stern lines so that I can reach them from amidships. My job when I descend to the dock, all I have to do is place the spring line on the aft most cleat, and deal with the rest of the lines at my leisure. Only rarely do I trust someone to do it for me. The usual problem is that they stand right where I want to step off the boat, but there's always a concern that the "helper" won't follow instructions. We have a member here who was not best pleased at my demeanor, when I said, "Put this loop over that cleat! pointing to it." Pretty bossy. The urge to be polite is great, if you can do it, but if you really don't want to crash the boat, your concern is for its welfare, not the "helper." I need to work on saying, with a smile, "no, thank you". The problem is that often, people really want to help, and may be offended if not allowed to. However, clear instructions often work.

Ann

So totally agree with Ann's remarks about the development of fully competent team approach to boating, wherein EVERYONE on the boat is encourage to enhance their skill sets and if encouragement is not enough then a bit of demanding may be required. Invoking an environment of mutual challenge, and of learning and mentoring together, so as to togetHER or togetHIM to be equal to or better than the other at all tasks.

Since my wife is not nearly as nimble, nor as strong as I am, I prefer that she skipper the helm and thereby avail me to "man" handle the lines since I can typically toss them further, or reach further [e.g., lasso a bullard or a cleat, or to use an extended pole aid] and I can scurry about the deck fore and aft faster positioning lines and shifting fenders when a situation calls out for speedy task accomplishment. She is quite capable of handling and setting the lines but just is not as fleet of feet. She had polio as an infant which resulted in significantly impairing one of her legs and required numerous orthopedic surgeries, shortening her good leg so as to match length of the shorter leg and the fusing of an ankle.

As a general rule, I prefer to keep control of all lines from the boat, which means having both ends lead back to the boat so as to avail complete control from the vessel and not require landside removal. If I utilize the assistance of a dockside helper, it is with the clearly stated understanding that the line will be immediately returned back to the line handler aboard the vessel, e.g., the dockside helper will be instructed to pass the line through a ring or under a bullrail and then return the line to the linesperson.
LoneRanger you had the misfortune of having a well intentioned helper set the bow line and cause you to loose control of your vessel. The helper was not a part of your team and did not know the planned maneuvering or the consequences of their action.

[jtsailjt]

I think Ann makes some very valid points regarding husband/wife roles and the importance of training yourselves to be as interchangeable as possible. Also, what she says is very true regarding the emotions involved with husband training the wife vs a stranger training her. Additionally, as she points out, the desire to be “polite” can really foul things up.

My wife and I recently had a non-sailing coupe aboard as guests. The husband was determinedly trying to be very helpful with everything we did, and was quite proactive, sometimes doing the exact opposite of what I would have preferred. While routinely picking up a mooring my wife understands that I can’t hear her from the foredeck when I’m back at the helm with engine running so we use simple hand signals so she can direct me (or vice versa) once the mooring ball and pickup buoy go out of my sight under the bow. But this time, the husband followed my wife forward, and his wife followed him, so as we approached the mooring all 3 were on the foredeck blocking my view. I could see the husband talking to my wife and then she stepped back while he tried to grab the pickup buoy. It had a short stem on it so could only be reached by kneeling on the deck but he didn’t figure that out right away and tried to reach over the lifelines but missed the opportunity. I couldn’t see anything so had no idea exactly where the pickup buoy was. Then, my wife, rattled by the surprise of him not grabbing the buoy, started screaming “reverse” instead of using the silent hand signals we normally use. What normally is a routine event that we do together calmly and silently with either of us at the helm turned into a chaotic, noisy event because the husband was very eager to “help” and my wife was too polite to say something like “not this time because we haven’t taught you our hand signals and just how we do this, and would you please stand over there so Jeff can see what he’s aiming for?” He was trying to be helpful and gentlemanly by talking her into letting him take over and she was taken by surprise and since it’s normally such a simple thing to do didn’t foresee how quickly things could fall apart. Hopefully, in hers and my discussion after this event, she has gained a better appreciation and understanding of the importance of not letting outsiders “take over” our boat even if they are an assertive male who she is trying to be hospitable and polite to. Sometimes you’ve just got to firmly say “no” and be directive, rather than passive and polite.

[meirriba]

Your initial plan was good.
It is always easier to secure the upwind line first and let the boat fall naturally into place with the wind (it may be different if there is also a current present going in a different direction than the wind).
Was your wife standind on the stern with the stern line in hand? You could instruct her to stick to the original plan.
Anyway, best thing to do (which I did not succeed to implement...) is to let the lady helm the boat and yourself handle lines, anchor or whatever mooring jobs, that normally needs more physical force. The helm needs only brains ( again, the wife usually has more) and experience.

[gonesail]

20 knots of wind and you want to back a 45' boat in? you are a much braver man than me.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by gonesail

20 knots of wind and you want to back a 45' boat in? you are a much braver man than me.

Back in is standard practice here in the Med... no different than going bows in if you're used to doing it.