Docking stern-to in crosswind

[Training Wheels]

Me? I’d wait till morning when there’s no wind.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by meirriba

Two issues:
1. Propwalk is to port, trying to pull stern away from intended slot that is on starboard of the backin boat.
2. Wind is 20 kn pushing bow away from the intened 90 deg angle to pontoon.

So the question is how to overcome these 2 effects, both working against the intended path into the slot.

Speed and momentum (see my previous post.)

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

Speed and momentum (see my previous post.)

Wish you success...
I was a witness to your proposed scenario.
A friend of mine tried to follow your idea, however he missed the intended slot, end of story: broken stern railing/posts, damage to stern GRP, broken outboard (that was hanging on stern), all this from the strong bow/anchor from the boat adjacent to the empty slot.
To succeed you need to practice a lot in different conditions and it will always be a hairy moment.

BTW - simple solution is to get help from someone on a rubber dinghy to push your bow in desired direction.
Standard procedure in Turkish marinas in cross winds.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by meirriba

Wish you success...
I was a witness to your proposed scenario.
A friend of mine tried to follow your idea, however he missed the intended slot, end of story: broken stern railing/posts, damage to stern GRP, broken outboard (that was hanging on stern), all this from the strong bow/anchor from the boat adjacent to the empty slot.
To succeed you need to practice a lot in different conditions and it will always be a hairy moment.

BTW - simple solution is to get help from someone on a rubber dinghy to push your bow in desired direction.
Standard procedure in Turkish marinas in cross winds.

Sure, any help you can get is more than welcome. But that’s not an answer to the original question. I merely gave the textbook reply. And yes, you do have to know your boat really really well to pull it off. Even so, you’ll still feel like you need to go to the bathroom.

[meirriba]

Another possible solution, not following the original question, but solving the exact situation, is simply to enter bow towards pontoon😄

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

This is the text book way of doing it:



The rule of thumb is to always approach the dock against the wind, even if you’re backing up. You make a fluid turn into the slip and propwalk is not relevant.

I’ve done this in 30 knots of wind. The harder it blows, the faster you have to go so the wind can’t play with your bow. Obviously you have to know your boat really well. In 30 knots, I have to go so fast that I’m on the verge of loosing control of the wheel and really have to brace myself and use all my strength.

When it’s gusty, ideally you toodle around downwind waiting for a lull before launching yourself. You can stay pretty stationary with your stern to the wind at low revolutions, waiting in the starting blocks as it were.

(In Step 6 above, start with the upwind line.
In Step 5, you can start braking gently at the earliest as soon as your (fin) keel is between the two other boats but you must retain momentum and avoid strong propwalk. The tighter the spot the sooner you’ll want to brake. Obviously boats with narrow sterns are at a big advantage for this maneuver. I have a fat squat stern which makes it even more hair raising.)

Don’t try this to wedge yourself into really tight spots where you litterally have to pull yourself in and push the other boats aside. You must have enough room for an unimpeded fluid motion.

I agree 100% !
I would reverse into the wind and start turning sooner than later... maintain speed for keeping steering and stop as soon as you are in..
Again, the main thing here is to maintain the speed.
The other way is more dangerous, even when you start reversing with your stern downwind, can cause you totally lose your bow!

[desodave]

I'm with Suijin and TP on this one. And in line with their qualification posts it's based on me and my fin keel boat. Like Waterman says, there is no way I could back up with the wind and keep my bow from blowing off in 15-20. And the channel needs to be wide enough -and long enough - that I could reliably execute a spin turn while getting blown. The wind catching the bow is also going to impact my ability to make the spin turn. That's also my escape issue and in this type of situation I want the option of escaping if/when my nose gets blown downwind too much on the turn into the slot. And I'm almost certainly going to want to escape downwind of I have the stern already into the slot.

If the channel is "big" enough, I'd go past the slot, pirouette turn around, come back and basically try the way Suijin 2) and TP have suggested. And it would be hitting reverse hard to get a prop walk aided wind assisted turn going.

I back down the fairway in my home marina past my slip so that I can dock bow first into a port side finger. The turn into the fairway is similar to this problem but probably with more room to carry it out - often 15+ crosswinds to the fairway. I don't always get the spacing right first time - gusts, current in the marina, slightly different wind direction - but it is all about timing a prop walk wind assisted turn imho.

[dokondr]

Originally Posted by desodave

I'm with Suijin and TP on this one. And in line with their qualification posts it's based on me and my fin keel boat. Like Waterman says, there is no way I could back up with the wind and keep my bow from blowing off in 15-20. And the channel needs to be wide enough -and long enough - that I could reliably execute a spin turn while getting blown. The wind catching the bow is also going to impact my ability to make the spin turn. That's also my escape issue and in this type of situation I want the option of escaping if/when my nose gets blown downwind too much on the turn into the slot. And I'm almost certainly going to want to escape downwind of I have the stern already into the slot.

If the channel is "big" enough, I'd go past the slot, pirouette turn around, come back and basically try the way Suijin 2) and TP have suggested. And it would be hitting reverse hard to get a prop walk aided wind assisted turn going.

I back down the fairway in my home marina past my slip so that I can dock bow first into a port side finger. The turn into the fairway is similar to this problem but probably with more room to carry it out - often 15+ crosswinds to the fairway. I don't always get the spacing right first time - gusts, current in the marina, slightly different wind direction - but it is all about timing a prop walk wind assisted turn imho.

When you turn around, go upwind, stop a 1 or 1.5 boat length away from a slot and then reverse into a slot - this will fail in 20Kn of wind. Why ? Very simple: you won't be able to get enough speed to steer the boat and will loose your bow right away.
Also note, that probability of tight turning 180 degrees in 20 Kn crosswind is quite low as well :-)


In case you reverse from the very beginning of the channel - you will loose your bow even earlier.

[KRMS]

Always upwind.

However the key thing is to not bash the neighbouring boats so if that means going in forwards (and perhaps turning round once the wind’s dropped) then that is what you should do. Be courteous and safe is not a cop out but good seamanship.

I’m in France at the moment where often skippers’ estimation of their abilities exceeds the actuality!

[meirriba]

Here is what I have understood from the posts:
1. All suggested techniques are boat specific as you need to practice and evaluate specific behaviours of the vessel.
2. After practice, it is still dangerous maneuver.
3. Bow thruster may help.
4. External help, e.g. motorised dinghy pushing the bow may solve proble.
5. Easier (painless) to dock with bow to pontoon in such situation

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by meirriba

Here is what I have understood from the posts:
1. All suggested techniques are boat specific as you need to practice and evaluate specific behaviours of the vessel.
2. After practice, it is still dangerous maneuver.
3. Bow thruster may help.
4. External help, e.g. motorised dinghy pushing the bow may solve proble.
5. Easier (painless) to dock with bow to pontoon in such situation

Don’t count on the bow thruster to do much in strong winds such as in this scenario. This is how I know that a boat is about to crash into others when I sit inside at the dock in bad weather: you suddenly start hearing lots of bow thruster noise. You pop your head out, and sure enough somebody is trying to rely on their bowthruster in a more and more panicked way instead of motoring. And then they crash. This is why I recommend a fluid high speed, high momentum motion for this scenario. No bow thruster, no prop walk.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

Don’t count on the bow thruster to do much in strong winds such as in this scenario. This is how I know that a boat is about to crash into others when I sit inside at the dock in bad weather: you suddenly start hearing lots of bow thruster noise. You pop your head out, and sure enough somebody is trying to rely on their bowthruster in a more and more panicked way instead of motoring. And then they crash. This is why I recommend a fluid high speed, high momentum motion for this scenario. No bow thruster, no prop walk.

I have phrased my post carefully.
Said bowthruster MAY help. Not full safe and secure answer.
As to propwalk it is always present while gear is engaged, with or against you.
Your procedure falls under 1st point in my post, needs training on each specific boat on always dangerous if even small mistake is made.
If you are sure you have mastered it then of course it is fine for you.

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by meirriba

I have phrased my post carefully.
Said bowthruster MAY help. Not full safe and secure answer.
As to propwalk it is always present while gear is engaged, with or against you.
Your procedure falls under 1st point in my post, needs training on each specific boat on always dangerous if even small mistake is made.
If you are sure you have mastered it then of course it is fine for you.

Noted your careful phrasing and my reply didn’t negate it. Just wanted to send out that caveat about bow thrusters in the world. As for prop walk, it is as good as non-existent once you have enough momentum (don’t slow down much, certainly don’t change gears).

In my case I would plan *not* to use the bow thruster for this maneuver if only because it is one less thing to think about (and no good would come from it—at least on my boat—to include it in the plan).

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by dokondr

When you turn around, go upwind, stop a 1 or 1.5 boat length away from a slot and then reverse into a slot - this will fail in 20Kn of wind. Why ? Very simple: you won't be able to get enough speed to steer the boat and will loose your bow right away.
Also note, that probability of tight turning 180 degrees in 20 Kn crosswind is quite low as well :-)

This is simply not true, at least in terms of it being an "absolute." It depends on the boat and the specific conditions.

If I lean on my throttle in reverse, with a MaxProp, I can dig a serious hole and horse the stern around to port very quickly. In fact, I usually have to be careful about overdoing it. The impact of the wind on the bow needs to be anticipated and factored into turn timing and how much throttle is used. In short, you're using the wind to your advantage, letting it finish straightening out the bow as you back in.

I've done it before more times than I can count. In some circumstances I've had to take a few runs at it, and there is no shame in that if you're closely monitoring your "bail point". I'd rather be timid and try three or four times than be too bold. And taking a few whacks at it allows you to better gauge the wind and how the boat is responding and fine tune the maneuver.

A lot of this comes down to experience. I live on my boat, I'm always moving, pulling into unfamiliar marinas, usually in the conditions I get not those I choose. Bottom line there is no "right" way to solve the OP's scenario, there is the way that you can pull off given your boat and your boat handling skills.

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "If I lean on my throttle in reverse, with a MaxProp, I can dig a serious hole and horse the stern around to port very quickly. In fact, I usually have to be careful about overdoing it. The impact of the wind on the bow needs to be anticipated and factored into turn timing and how much throttle is used. In short, you're using the wind to your advantage, letting it finish straightening out the bow as you back in."

This is the key! I said something about "pouring on the coal" and "accelerating really hard". Positioning and timing is EVERYTHING if you try this. I also said that "being head out, I can bugger off to sea" (if I don't like how this maneuver is developing).

Trying to come into the slip "bows in" you'd be absolutely buggered if you blow it!

INTIMATE knowledge of your particular boat's behaviour - and your own - is sine qua non for this maneuver. As others have said, and I think I did too, best to lie off till things ease up :-)!

TP