Don't push on stanchions! Here's why...

[kismet]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "From Mrs. Cosmopilite?"

Unlikely, since MSM was entirely untutored in English :-)! In fact she was - poor soul - so entirely parochial that anything originating outside the Danish Realm was viewed with extreme suspicion. "We DANES", she would say (in Danish, of course), "do not chew gum!" "We DANES", she would say, "do not eat goat meat!". "We DANES..." So I suspect the influence may very well have been the other way about :-)!

Interestingly, she was a wonderful cook - totally unaware that her style was very much Escoffier. When I was 10 or 11, I was called to the kitchen which, given the time and the place, was normally out of bounds for male members of the family. MSM: "I am going to teach you to cook". Me: "Mo-omm! I'm a boy. Why would I have to learn to cook?!" MSM: "Women are fickle- you will learn to cook!"

TrentePieds

I wish I was a cook. Many benefits there, no doubt.

[Kiwi.]

Originally Posted by nitpik

I know I will not be popular for this, but as devil's advocate, why are they called "lifelines"? If they are not strong enough to take a little push from a dock boy, how are they going to hold up when you need them most?

Even quite light, but well made, stanchions and lifelines can take an amazing amount of abuse from inside the boat pushing out (i.e. someone trying to fall overboard). The top of the stanchion is supported by the wire that curves from one stanchion to another. When the "helpful" dock hand grabs the top of the stanchion to push you away from the dock s/he might as well be taking a crowbar to the mounting base of your stanchion as the wire provides no support at all with force from the outside.

[tworail]

Originally Posted by ebsail

Why do we have wire lifelines when we could have solid 1" railing like most powerboats? This spreads the load to all the adjoining stantions . As far as I know, only Amel uses solid tubing lifelines

Wondering this myself. My old Sea Ray cruiser has a similar system installed forward of the cockpit, but it's attached to a solid deck, and the entire system is very rigid, although somewhat useless as it's not very high and is more of a tripping hazard.

Aside from the expense, wouldn't a solid rail installation be a much more effective system? Any downsides that aren't obvious to a dinghy sailor who is moving up to a much bigger boat? On my new to me boat it seems worthwhile to learn how to properly bend and weld SS tubing just for a project like this.

Then you could set the heights accordingly and create all kinds of custom fittings for lashing gear, outboards, etc.

I've seen a zillion boat refit blogs and videos but don't recall seeing something like this as a project.

[Dougtiff]

So, one of the problems with securing the bases is they are right up next to the hull deck joint, which means no matter how large you make the backing plate, the area outboard of where the base is bolted is limited, kinda defeats the whole idea of larger backing plates.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Dougtiff

So, one of the problems with securing the bases is they are right up next to the hull deck joint, which means no matter how large you make the backing plate, the area outboard of where the base is bolted is limited, kinda defeats the whole idea of larger backing plates.

While that is undeniably true, it mostly affects the outside edge of the stanchion base. Where the inside, which by leverage is the working side on the stanchion has a lot more scope to resist outward forces.

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by hafa

Now THERE's a guardrail. I encourage all and sundry to follow this example. Sorry, but I HAVE to ask, "Did you ever pet a luma"?

Never pet a luma, but understand there is one further up the Petaluma River/slough.

Wonder why cruising sailboats settle for mere wire "strings" as the last resort from going overboard rather than strong, solid, and high railings. Not like cruisers should compromise all for racing. Also question many power boats with weak railings.

[El Pinguino]

My lifelines and stanchions are 'fit for intended purpose' which is stopping people from falling in.

What they are neither intended for or fit for is for people to use them as supports when hauling themselves up out of their dinghy through one of those stupid 'gates'.

Think 600mm long lever working on a 37mm base... something is going to give....

Thats why my 'gates' are never open and are in fact taped shut. When alongside I typically have a Midland Dairy ( remains the property of ) milk crate secured on the slip in way of the shrouds as a step.... but on occasion Mrs Head's little boy Richard will still try and use the gate....

People trying to hold my wee ship off the berth by leaning on my stanchions? Never happened to me.. I learnt my ship handling at the knee of Old Harry.... people flee in terror when they see my cranse iron coming at em......

[Sardean]

I've been out racing hiking out on the life lines with 7 others for hours on end. And when going up the pointy end in rough weather the life lines cop a flogging as they stop us going overboard, in the racing I've done the tether is worn in case you fall overboard then it will try and drown you, the lifelines are a great help to keep you onboard. We do repair and maintain the lifelines between offshore races as you really trust your life to them when hiking out. We do use them to hang fenders off . We only use the base of the stanchions to grab when docking and we don't use them to board .

[ZULU40]

its not like the engineering doesnt exist
even in simple tests on existing gear
SetSail FPB » Blog Archive » FPB 78 Lifeline Stanchion Test

this example thanks to Cruising World
A Strong Stanchion to Save Your Life | Cruising World

[bvisailing32]

Good stuff....

What are life lines made for....

Not for pulling on, or pushing on when fending off , or pulling on when cllmbing on board....we als0 use the shrouds.....and whiz off the stern when underway, well maybe not when directly downwind.

And, yes they are for our safety when walking along the decks and not going overboard in a sea way.

Of course , another sea story follows.

Sailing the BVI , Erica and I , and two great friends who were new to sailing but power were power boaters, and professional pilots and boat and plane owners. So, good crew, who also purchased two books on basic sailing to be prepared for our two weeks cruisng the BVI well ahead of the trip.

The boat was about a 34 ft. Freedom, with a huge main, and small jib whose foot was fixed to a metal jib boom.

Good BVI winds, may 15 to 20....sailing wing and wing on the back side of Tortola, from Marina Cay, and after snorkeling Monkey Point at Guana Is.

The wind was such that we were changing course a bit and headed more toward Tortola on our way to Jost.

Land was approaching , so I went up forward to release the preventer that secured the large, large main sail boom. The preventer was an extra jib sheet that I had secured to the clew area of the main and had cleat hitched to the cleat up at the bow.

Releasing the cleat hitch, I walked back a bit to stay forward of that main boom, while we changed tacks. The main sheet was lead to one of those electric slow moving winches....Nancy, the fed -ex pilot, was hauling away to center the main ...it would not break out of the winch...so slow, slow.

WHAM.... A tremendous impact at the base of my skull sent me flying airborne ....aerodynamically launching over the life lines and overboard.

Things, in my mind seemed to slow down, although it actualy occured in a nano second. I could see I was going overboard, and the life lines approaching at light speed...the bow wave was rushing along the hull.

I dropped both of my arms, making hooks at the elbows. Kind of like a tail hook when snagging the three wire on a carrier. My two arm hooks caught the life line, but my momentum was still carrying me forward, my feet and legs were now near vertical, and I figured I could hold on to the life line and bang along side the hull until help arrived...

But , that did not happen, with my body vertical, it teetered a bit and fell back on board along the splash way. Thank you sea gods.

Erica , at the helm, shouted for Phil and Nance to go help me...they were at the main and jib sheets.

" NO ! " I yelled laying there at the bow, " SAIL THE BOAT, JIBE US OUT OF HERE, AWAY FROM LAND ! TRIM YOUR SAILS"

It was a pretty good whack to the base of my skull with the jib boom, that I totally had discounted since not sailing many boats with metal jib booms...my big dumb ass error.

Getting up, they now had the main hauled in, and squared the jib away. I walked back aft, and retrieved the now trailing astern preventer, pulled it on board, and reEved it free from the clew area of the main boom. Coiled and tossed the sheet into the cockpit locker and sat down.

I had a grand lump at the lower BACK side of my skull , so medical attention was required.

It consisted of"

" Watch my finger, hold your head steady " As Phil watched my eye movement.

then, they tied a RED fllled bandana vertically all nice knotted on the top of my head.

Then, Nancy appeared with a large mug of Mount Gay Rum in one hand, and the camera to take a photo of the skipper who looked liked he was recovering from the mumps. Harggghhh, Mt Gay with a splash...perfect treatment.

Lots of good laughter and smiles, and we were now smartly having a spirited sail, broad reaching for Jost Van Dyke at party time at Foxy's.

What the hell happened ? We were closing deep into one of the bays on the back side of tortolla wing and wing, and with the canyons, we were back winded , and the strong gust slammed into the jib sail, which swung across the bow with enormous force and the jib boom impacted my Irish Skull.

So, there is a good reason for having life lines, and not having a slow moving main sheet winch, and having the sense to be aware of the bare boat boom vang.

No blame was found with the crew, who felt like it was there fault, no it was not. Responsibility fell totally on the skipper who was, me, himself.

Also, true to folk lore, you cannot kill an Irish / Viking by hitting him in the head.

And Rum helps most hurt bumps .

[Cottontop]

From the Cruising World source that ZULU40 posted:

"The American Boat and Yacht Council suggests that the entire lifeline installation be capable of withstanding a ÒstaticÓ force of about 600 lbs."

So apparently there is a standard (no idea if the standard is adequate). I wonder how many "as delivered" boats comply.

[Scot McPherson]

If your stanchions are not strong enough for a human being to use to fend off a boat (we aren't talking about using the stanchions as a rub rail here), then the manufacturer of your boat or the outfitter that put them there did a very substandard job...saying that, I realize that is in fact standard.


Those stanchions hold your lifelines, and they therefore should be able to hold up to any force that a human being can subject them to, if you don't think so, then just rip them out because they will create a false sense of security.


I would expect anyone reading this thread to be shocked that there lifelines aren't strong enough to save their lives if they start to tumble overboard.


Beef those things up. Mount them as you would if they were cleats and winches...these don't just hold lines that hold sails, these lines potentially hold your life.


Good golly.

[Pascals Wager]

I was led to believe that solid rails are not used on yachts as any extra weight above the C of G will reduce the Neutral stability angle, just as all those fuel cans etc lashed to the lifelines.

[rhubstuff]

Seems to me a stanchion that's not strong enough to push on from a standing position is not strong enough to resist the full weight of a large human falling against it during a storm. From a standing position, I can exert a horizontal push of maybe 80-100 pounds. If I were to fall against the lifelines during a knockdown, I might exert 250+ pounds of force against them. I understand the bending and fatigue issues, but a dockhand bending a stanchion by pushing on it a few times doesn't speak well for the integrity of the system. Would you rather the dockhand just let your boat hit the dock? Lifelines should be designed and built for routine use as handholds and safety lines. IMHO, something's wrong if lifelines aren't strong enough to resist routine holding, pushing, pulling, hanging on, and taking the full force of someone falling across the deck.

[rhubstuff]

We're heeled over 25-30 degrees in 20 knots of wind, and you're going to say "Let's get the crew on the weather rail, but don't touch the lifelines." Say what?