Dumb Anchoring Question

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by jackdale

I also do not like stern anchors. When I stern tie I use a long line to a rock, tree or ring. Ideally I can bring the line back to the boat so that I can release and retrieve the line. If need be (not yet) I can simply cast off the stern line.

When stern tied, I also set my anchor just as I would if swinging: 1500 rpm in reverse while checking the anchor rode for vibration and checking transits ashore. I will not stern-tie if I have a strong wind abeam.

Ex-Calif

Why do you use a long pennant? I know some mooring balls come with pennants, which I do not trust. I build my own bridle through the ring, using 2 bridles if I can concerned about chafe.

I will try to describe what we have in our field. We don't have classic "cans" with rings.

A small ~8 inch ball is attached to the "loop" in a 1 inch anchor rode by a 1/4 inch pennant. The 1 inch rode is attached about 6-8 feet down to a 3-4 foot diameter buoy.

You pick up the small ball, haul the big rode aboard and throw the loop across a bow roller or straight to a cleat, some guys attach ther own pennant to the loop, especially if their deck cleat is on the middle of the foredeck. Primarily because the 1 inch rode is dirty but also if the 6-8 feet is at the limit of reach to the cleat especially for bigger boats. The couple of cat guys we have alway do this with a bridle.

The problem I was describing was the boat sailing to windward and the keel wrapping on the 1 inch rode with the big ball snug against the hull. This would happen with a pennant or not, I think. The boat is not actually swinging in an arc like the anchoring books show but driving straight across the ball. Ten degrees of rudder "fixed" that as it then "steered" away from the submerged mooring line.

This was also a buddies race boat. My boat doesnt do that and as I watch the tide change at my club many boats switch sides in different ways.

I attached a sort crummy photo of our setup...

[Bash]

The absolute worst anchoring solution is to anchor on a sloped bottom. When you're blown downslope, the anchor is twice as likely to pull out. And once you pull out, there's almost no hope of the anchor re-setting.

As much as I hate having to use a stern anchor, there's not really a better solution to a steep anchorage.

[bobconnie]

Personaly I would, depending on the prevailing wind, drop the hook off shore in 25-30 ft in the flatest place i could find let out and backdown on 4 or 5 depth lenghts, then back toward the beach letting out more chain. then set Danforth by hand and then go back on my forward chain setting my stern anchor at the same time or as said above use something ashore to tie off to and doubleing up helps LOL I always use a "Bobber" on my stern anchor just in case something happens and i need to MOVE just my 2cents Bob and Connie

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Hillbillylad

Thanks all for your insights. It seems that situational awareness is the main criteria and an understanding of the required angles. I have a feeling a lot of the boats that suffer dragging etc are confident they have followed the 5 to 1 or whatever formula but not took into account other factors.
for myself, it is an area I worry about and will study deeper and practice often.

Well said.

[familycruisers]

Cats are a different breed as are we Hillbilly, thats why in all the arguements (discussion), I think the Centaur w/ bilge keel and a 3' draft, is going to be fantastic on the Chessy. Pull right up to the beach!

[Palarran]

Hillbillylad - It turned out to be a pretty good question didn't it.

I haven't understood the hesitation to use stern anchors that many have. This may be because I lack the years of experience most of you have. In Michigan, on the Great Lakes, we use them quite often with power boats.

To me, your primary anchor needs to be set to prevent the boat from going ashore due to wind and wave force. Your stern anchor needs to be strong enough to deal with wind forces alone driving you off shore. I would think this senerio happens when in a semi tight bay, so if the wind clocks around to onshore, you will only have an angle of wind/wave that is maybe 45 degrees off center in either direction. Being beam on to wind/waves shouldn't happen.

I just purchased a Fortress FX37 with 30' of chain and 150' of rode for this exact situation. Several times I have had my boat backwinded at anchor much differently then others around me. Given enough room in the bay, I'll anchor further out to avoid this, but some bays are too small or crowded. I would think it would be easier with your anchor alarm also as the radius of swing can be decreased substantually.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Palarran

I just purchased a Fortress FX37 with 30' of chain and 150' of rode for this exact situation.

I'm hearing a lot more people refer to the nylon, and only the nylon, as the "rode." In fact, the chain and the nylon combine to form the rode. I would be correct, above, to state that you have an FX37 with 180' of rode.

(The way I learned it, the anchor stock and shackle are also technically considered part of the rode.)

[Waterway Guide]

...and a stern anchor is not quite the same as a bahamian moor, which has both rodes coming to the bow, usually through a swivel, allowing the boat to always point to the wind. A bow/stern anchor combination can cause the boat to hold sideways to the wind, putting a huge amount of extra wind and wave force on the boat and anchors.
Maybe bahamian moor is what everyone has meant all along...hopefully this will clarify for other readers.

[Palarran]

Thanks Bash, I didn't know that.

Waterwayguide, I'm actually talking about a stern anchor. I personally haven't used the Bahamian moor but understand it.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Palarran

Hillbillylad - It turned out to be a pretty good question didn't it.

I haven't understood the hesitation to use stern anchors that many have.

The problem with a stern anchor is that it can put you at right angles to the wind and wave forces. In this orientation the forces increse dramatically and both anchors can drag.
There are times when a stern anchor can be senisible, but it important to recognise the times when it can be counterproductive.
It is easy to imagine 2 anchors will always give more holding power than 1, but this is not always the case.
The reduced radius of swing is also not always helpful, if other boats are anchored on a single anchor.
The anchor alarm can always be set to alert of problems no matter how many anchors are used.
The Fortress is an ideal stern anchor, when required.

[goboatingnow]

Stern anchors, other then when you really must use them, are a poor substitute. They provide little or no assurance and lots of the time make the problem worse.

Dave

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Waterway Guide

...and a stern anchor is not quite the same as a bahamian moor, which has both rodes coming to the bow, usually through a swivel, allowing the boat to always point to the wind. A bow/stern anchor combination can cause the boat to hold sideways to the wind, putting a huge amount of extra wind and wave force on the boat and anchors.
Maybe bahamian moor is what everyone has meant all along...hopefully this will clarify for other readers.

You're right that in a Bahamian moor both anchors come off the bow. However one leads forward and the other aft. This was used in strong tidal anchorages with restricted swing room, such as Nassua harbour (nobody uses a Bahamian moor in Nassau anymore). How you do it is to drop and set the first anchor, fall way, way back letting out rode as you go, drop the second anchor and then heave away on the first so that you are equidistant from both hooks. When the tide turns hopefully the second hook will set and you'll sit on that hook, remaining in the same spot on both the flood and the ebb.

[AllezCat]

Originally Posted by Hillbillylad

I have looked, believe me I have looked.
When anchoring in say ten feet of water, the bibles go on to say you will then drop back and set your anchor at 5 to 1 or whatever. I get that bit.
But, here's my confusion.
You sail up to a beach, and in my case that can be pretty shallow with a draft of 3 foot, and drop anchor in say 5 feet of water. But as you drop back you are pretty quickly in 20 feet of water under the keel. So which depth do you use to work out your cable length? The 5 feet where you dropped the anchor or the 20 feet under the keel?
I know it sounds stupid but it is confusing the buggery out of me.

to answer the question - the 5 foot depth.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Hillbillylad

You sail up to a beach, and in my case that can be pretty shallow with a draft of 3 foot, and drop anchor in say 5 feet of water. But as you drop back you are pretty quickly in 20 feet of water under the keel.

This was the original scenerio. I would still think that it would be better to drop your primary anchor in 20' of water (or 50') and reverse to shore, set a stern anchor in 3' of water and split the difference. I wouldn't use this when there is a chance to have beam to wind and waves.

[Hillbillylad]

Originally Posted by familycruisers

Cats are a different breed as are we Hillbilly, thats why in all the arguements (discussion), I think the Centaur w/ bilge keel and a 3' draft, is going to be fantastic on the Chessy. Pull right up to the beach!

Yep they fall into a class of their own do Centaurs. I'll be making the best use of the keels to bag the sweetest spots next to the beach.