Examples of a two crew watch rotation for an ocean crossing?

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by Godshalk

I'm curious what people find best re time. GMT is simple and requires no changes but time vs. sun will be weird and change. Local time means getting all crew to change their watches, and ship's clocks, at the same time, impossible when people are asleep; also, watch changes will be later or earlier than number of planned hours.

My approach is dated, but when I was delivering, most boats had at least two screens. I would run one GMT and the other local. Mostly power boats. This was to align with wx fax and USCG update transmissions which were in GMT to avoid the very confusion you insinuate.

[Maka]

A person typically needs 6 hours sleep to get to REM sleep.So for extended passages, 6 hours OFF watch is important.
Radar with alarms ON can be a huge help.....if only for peace of mind. Radar can do 24/7 watches with out a break.
Beyond that, set watches based on crew needs and comfort zones.
If you have a long passage get more crew.....for the safety of everyone.
Exhausted minds have poor decision making skills.

[mvweebles]

I'm perplexed by this thread. I've watched a lot of people trying to stand a 3 or 4 hour watch in the middle of the night, myself included, and struggle, at least for the first few days. Some of the suggestions here seem theoretical based on ocean racing schedules with significant crew - stuff wrought of reading books, not experience with real people who don't have a background of working 3rd shift.

To the OP. You've asked a really good question. Much depends on your natural rhythms. Two people covering a 24 hour watch for multiple days is difficult. In the corporate world, it takes 5 employees to cover an around the clock shift long term. Doing it with two takes commitment and focus. And a realization that you will be tired sometimes. Really tired.

[JPA Cate]

Jim and I started out with 4 on 4 off, and it worked okay for coastal cruising. When we started passage making we found that what works best for us is a sort of flexible 6 on 6 off. [I'm telling you to experiment and find what works best for you.]

Jim gets me up a bit before midnight, which is when my day begins. I am a morning person, and this is pretty well suited to my body's rhythms. I am then on watch either till 6 am, or sometimes till 8 or so, in which case, we have breakfast together and I take a nap. I will then get up sometime between 9:30 and 11:30. Lunch together, and his afternoon nap (to catch up on whatever he needs from the night). I get him up or he gets up before hand, in time to fix supper, and we eat together, and I aim to get my head down at 6 PM. We get enough sleep this way, even when the weather is rough, and arrive fairly refreshed in ports. As we aged, we have come to have both people on deck for things we used to do alone.

We maintain this flexible schedule, with guidelines so to speak, even when coastal cruising. Once you trained our bodies to it, it works just fine for us.

But do listen to your bodies. We have some very experienced cruising friends who do not maintain a schedule at all! Just go till they're tired, and then get the other one up. I don't know how they can do it and feel well, but they do. Just a caveat that what works well for one couple may not suit you.

Ann

[tradrockrat]

First of all, I want to thank ALL of you for responding. This has been a great thread.

My wife and I are set on making 2 person cruising work and will obviously do what is necessary to make it happen.

As is true with any post, I was ready to receive good intentioned advice from you all and I thank you for it. My wife and I will definitely have training, build up from shorter to longer trips, and experiment with our schedules. We will have modern electronics and know how to use them, we will not cross an ocean before both of us know we could do it by ourselves if the other fell (ill, off, or otherwise!). Both of us are professionals in our work lives and we both (especially me) believe in knowing your s#!t before wandering off the map.

One thing I've seen repeated by those who are actually doing 2 person crewed cruising is a repeated emphasis on natural rhythms of each person and we have discussed that a thousand times because we are very different people. I think this thread has given us both a great place to start from and play with as we start our longer sails.

Thank you all again.

[nztcRon]

Hi all
One schedule that works pretty well and overcomes some of the issues noted above is a 2x6 plus 3x4, so maybe 0800 to 1400, 1400 to 2000, 2000 to 2359, 000 to 0400 and 0400 to 0800.
Nice long sleep each day, different watch each 24 hrs,

Cheers
R

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Godshalk

I'm curious what people find best re time. GMT is simple and requires no changes but time vs. sun will be weird and change. Local time means getting all crew to change their watches, and ship's clocks, at the same time, impossible when people are asleep; also, watch changes will be later or earlier than number of planned hours.

Change by one hour as necessary at current noon.
It makes the two day watches 5 and 7 (or vice versa) on that day rather than 6 and 6, but that's no real problem.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Paul Howard

Having a radio for the on watch helps (shortwave receiver/multiband portable) and a Kindle.

Not at night I hope.

[kmacdonald]

If offshore, set the AIS zone alarm and both turn in for the night. You got to trust the technology and I'm sure it keeps better watch than I do.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

If offshore, set the AIS zone alarm and both turn in for the night. You got to trust the technology and I'm sure it keeps better watch than I do.

Broadly speaking I agree with this and am often confused by crew getting tired after three or four hours of night watch. After all there are probably millions of people who routinely work 8-hour night shifts in often high-stress environments.

With modern tech (AIS, radar alarms, depth sounders, wind shifts on AP) I have changed my inflexible rule of watches staying wide awake on watch to one of crew being in the cockpit but allowed to doze/snooze. But I think that when a proximity alarm goes off there needs to be someone on deck who can react without delay.

Which brings me back to why crew gets so “exhausted” after a 3 or 4 hour watch. Watch-keeping is no longer the “arduous” business it was years ago. I ask my crew (and I practise it myself) that if they reach the end of their described watch in a fresh state, able to safely continue, keep going and let the next person get extra rest. Similarly, if you’re off-watch, next up and no longer sleeping, check if you can relieve the watch-keeper a little earlier.

Having said all of that, I work hard to ensure we always have three people on board for passages and then run 3-on-6-off. Cycles constantly change to prevent boredom and if one can’t get by after 6 hours off, medical attention would be recommended.

[Red Sky]

Originally Posted by AiniA

Good observations here. We typically have 4 - 3 hour watches with no formal watches during the other 12 hours. There is always one person or both available then. We slightly alter the starting time of the first watch by when it gets dark which is impacted by whether you are in the eastern or western part of the time zone. I take the first and third watches, say 1900-2200 and 0200-0500. The latter one can be a drag although lots of stars to check out.

0200-0500, sometimes known as the “OMG...it’s only 0400?” shift.

[bvimatelot]

I've always used 4 hr night watches and 6 hour day watches. This has the advantages of changing your watch every other day whilst giving you at least one full 6 hour stretch in your rack, and only having to cook dinner every other day.

So: 0800 - 1400 Crew 1 (If auto pilot working, he/she can do domestics whilst on watch) Lunch is Help Yourself when you wake up
1400 - 2000 Crew 2 Prep dinner whilst on watch - aiming for 7pm
2000 - 2359 Crew 1 Cleans up after dinner
0001 - 0400 Crew 2
0400 - 0800 Crew 1 (Prep Breakfast - normally a "Full English")
0800 - 1400 Crew 2 (Clean up b'kfast and domestics)
etc etc

10 minutes before the watch change the kettle goes on so the on coming crew gets Tea/Coffee/Hot chocolate as appropriate.

I have no hesitation in heaving to to cook a proper main meal for dinner if weather is making things difficult for the souffle.

I also find that you can balance the sails/rudder quite happily to give you sufficient time to have a pee or put the kettle on...it worked for Slocum and its worked for me, if autopilot not working (which has happened to me more times than I can shake a stick at).

I've done too many submarine patrols in Defence Watches of 6 on, 6 off and found it to be pretty tiring as during your time off you are doing Admin, paperwork or something else.

Tony

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I'm perplexed by this thread. I've watched a lot of people trying to stand a 3 or 4 hour watch in the middle of the night, myself included, and struggle, at least for the first few days. Some of the suggestions here seem theoretical based on ocean racing schedules with significant crew - stuff wrought of reading books, not experience with real people who don't have a background of working 3rd shift... .

Really? I think a lot of people in this thread have extensive experience of long-distance cruising, and deliveries too, and some over many decades of it.



In my real life experience with real people, a certain number of people have difficulty with night watches, but most don't once they get into the rhythm of passage-making. I am a natural night owl so I actually like the graveyard shift and ALWAYS take it when I'm in the watch rotation, usually 02:00-06:00 or 00:00-04:00. I like this watch -- the stars, if it's clear, the moon, the sunrise. I don't sleep all that well or all that much on passage (like everyone I guess) but I sleep best of all in the morning after standing a night watch.


Another thing we didn't discuss is what you do with inexperienced watchstanders. I sail with a lot of volunteer crew of greatly varying skills, and in a great number of cases volunteer crew have exaggerated their sailing skills during the selection process, mostly unintentionally probably (I had one crew who was an experienced professional delivery skipper who as it turned out didn't know how to sail AT ALL -- he exclusively motored all of his deliveries. He knew literally zero about sailing. We had a vigorous fast beam reach one day, and he freaked out -- had never been on a boat on a heel before, and it was terrifying! Was a very nice guy though, and we found plenty for him to do). If I'm not in the regular watch rotation, I will often double the watch of an inexperienced person. I will often sit in the cockpit with such a person at night, or at the nav table, and I'm on deck any time any sail trimming is required.


Inexperienced watchstanders are 85% as valuable as experienced ones because keeping a lookout is the most time-consuming job of passagemaking, and anyone can do this.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

If offshore, set the AIS zone alarm and both turn in for the night. You got to trust the technology and I'm sure it keeps better watch than I do.

I most emphatically disagree with this statement. Imo, it is very, very poor advice.

Both of you turning in for the night simply does not take into adequate account that electronic devices fail suddenly for reasons it takes time to figure out. Nor is it legal, nor, necessary.

NO! Someone must be on watch at all times. Technology is wonderful, but the mark one eyeball has been our go to safety device for over 35 yrs. now.

By watch, I mean a real watch, where if you hear something you do not understand, you go forward and you look for an unknown that could be the source of the noise. I mean, too, that all your navigation lights that are appropriate to the situation are lit. It means that you train yourself to be aware enough to see the unlit ship, as once happened on my morning watch.

We expect everybody to follow the rules, but they're human and they don't. Never mind why they don't, it is just that when you or I am on watch it is you or me who is responsible for the welfare of the vessel and us. NO, couples don't need to "turn in and go to sleep". Singlehanders may well do, and that's a different situation.

You'll notice, if you look up Boatman 61's posts, that although when he singlehands, he sleeps, he takes watch crew for long voyages: and they are his eyes while he is asleep.

To me, it is morally wrong, as well as legally wrong to "turn in and go to sleep," as a "normal" practice when there is an able bodied person to stand a watch while the skipper sleeps. If you want to make love, it comes out of your off watch, not his, and may be a quickie.

Now, if all aboard are too ill to stand watch, that would be different. But it is rare. [We once spent 3 days hove to, with the anchor light on at night, while suffering from the Victoria A flu.] It is way, way better to never be unable to stand watch.

Ann

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

. . . With modern tech (AIS, radar alarms, depth sounders, wind shifts on AP) I have changed my inflexible rule of watches staying wide awake on watch to one of crew being in the cockpit but allowed to doze/snooze. But I think that when a proximity alarm goes off there needs to be someone on deck who can react without delay. . .

I sail with a lot of volunteer crew of varying experience and skill. The only crew I ever have a problem with are the ones who don't accept that watchkeeping means full time looking out, and insist on snoozing, reading, or otherwise being inattentive on watch. I don't tolerate it -- I don't think it's safe or acceptable or seamanlike, and it certainly violates the collision regulations.



Modern tech (especially effective radar guard zones) is a fantastic enhancement to watchkeeping, but is NOT a substitute for looking out.


I was on the graveyard shift one night about 03:00 on a long passage from the Faroe Islands all the way to Southern England, without stopping in the Orkneys or Scotland (we were trying to get out of the way of an approaching weather system). I was NOT snoozing or being inattentive. But I somehow missed a fishing boat with dim nav lights going into Peterhead across my path which was not running AIS and which somehow got through my guard zones without an alarm. I almost jumped out of my skin when the VHF crackled -- the guy, thank God, wasn't snoozing himself, saw me on AIS (he had a receiver), but couldn't make out my nav lights (I was running the tricolor), knew we were on a collision course but couldn't figure out which way to turn. I immediately hit the decklight, hit the sails with a torch and we unwound the situation -- and I gave my profuse thanks for his vigilance and seamanship, and profound apologies for the lapse of my own, over VHF as we sailed away from each other.


How would that have turned out if everyone gives up "the inflexible rule of watches staying wide awake on watch"? You sure that your radar really picks up everything always and always sounds the alarm? What if something starts to chafe? What if you get off course? What if the pilot malfunctions?