'Forcible Evacuation'

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by hiracer

… But I have questions about the practicalities of the CG effecting an all-or-none edict if the captian is the last to get off and changes his mind at the last minute and decides to stay with his boat. In fact, maybe that was his intention from the beginning, but he didn't make it known until the crew was off the boat.
Then what does the CG do? Fight about it? I think not…

If you’re crew wants “off”, and you’re staying – don’t tell anyone.
I have no idea if there might be “consequences”, but you will have “had your way”; and any consequences will have been earned and appropriately rewarded.

Personally, I’ll stick to the principal that either: we’re in imminent danger, or we’re not.
I won’t ask anyone to expend resources ,nor endanger personnel, for the physical nor emotional comfort of myself or crew.

[Hiracer]

Gord,

I agree 100% about not calling for help unless the need is real.

The problem is when there is disagreement between captain and crew about whether that call should be made.

Especially, if the crew makes that call without approval from the captain, who is perhaps too busy working the boat to sit down and discuss the matter with a frightened crew.

[Hiracer]

This is totally out from left field and not all that related, but I gotta tell a story anyhow.

I was one of the adult leaders on a Boy Scout overnight bicycle trip.

The morning of our return trip, one of the boys borrowed a cell phone from one of the other adult leaders and called his folks to say come pick up him up, riding was too hard.

After we all packed up our camp, he told us what he did (actually it was two of them). They wanted to be left behind while they waited for their rides.

The other adult was the real leader of this trip and he didn't know what to do. I went ballalistic, in a nice way. Took control. Said no way, we sure as heck can't leave one or two 12 year olds in the middle of nowhere completely on their own (duh).

And we couldn't make the whole group wait the several hours for the parent to arrive (which involved a ride on a ferry to get to the island), or we would all be arriving way after when we told the parents we would get home. (What a disaster that would have been.)

So bud, you two are coming with me and your parents can spend all day looking for you.

Which is exactly what happened. Both parents left their cell phones at home so we had no way to tell them to stay home. One parent spent all day looking for his kid. Went to the campground and found nobody and spent the day aimlessly driving and looking for us. The other parent just plain ignored her kid and went shopping; knew the kid's proposal would never fly. (Good parent.)

I rode shotgun and forced those spoiled brats to ride back, after they complained bitterly that they couldn't do it, even though the prior day they had ridden the exact same route.

The parent who spent literally all day looking for his kid was not happy. But when I explained what our options were, he understood why we did what we did. He was good with it.

The moral of the story is that sometimes control of the lines of communication is part of the job. I could have killed the other adult who lent the cell phone to the kids. That was a bad decision.

Troup rules about cell phones on campouts were changed at the next meeting.

But I agree that riding a bike is not sailing a boat.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

Gord,
I agree 100% about not calling for help unless the need is real.
The problem is when there is disagreement between captain and crew about whether that call should be made.
Especially, if the crew makes that call without approval from the captain, who is perhaps too busy working the boat to sit down and discuss the matter with a frightened crew.

In which case, you might keep your personal intention to stay aboard, to yourself, until the "mutinous" crew has been evacuated. This strategy will preclude the rescuers from making any decisions about "need".

[David_Old_Jersey]

"The Floggings will continue until Morale improves"

I think their are 2 different (albeit related) issues here.

The first is how does the Captain ensure he retains control of his crew and if he loses control of 1 or more, then what does he do about it......

........and secondly comes the CG rescue issue, and opinions on board differing as to the need for rescue.....which IMO if the above is sorted will never arise.


As prevention is better than cure, I would suggest only sailing with crew who are highly likely to obey without question in times of stress / crisis based on a long association creating a faith in the Captains judgement - in practice this is probably family or folk that the Captain judges will understand the need to "do as they are bl##dy well told" when needed and who also have faith in the Captain's judgement.

What does the Captain do about any crew who are no longer under his control? IMO they are then a danger to the boat and all others onboard and therefore get dealt with accordingly - obviously easier if this person is not family! - in the old days they had confined to quarters, locked in the Brig, Flogging and hanging from the Yard Arm......and they did not have this stuff for fun.....even when the Captain had the advantage of a crew to physically back him up.

I would order them confined to quarters ("get in your F##king bunk and stay there" - put very very firmly), on pain of the second option of locked in the Brig (physically restrained) and if not then getting placed in the dinghy towed behind and not being too fussy about what condition they were in to get there or indeed if they made it into the dinghy or not. Probably sounds a bit harsh - but I really would not want my boat to go down with all hands out of simple politeness........I'm not English

IME sometimes their is not always a "Good" option which keeps everybody happy and (just like with the Boy Scouts) the leader / Captain needs to take a decision. and sometimes this is a sh#tty one, but it's the job yer signed up for and yer crew need you to do. (even the Mutinous crew needs it).

On a boat these decisions can be life and death, albeit it is often a series of small decisions that on their own are not decisive - if a person is not able or willing to excerise leadership that may involve unpopular or harsh decisions on behalf of the boat and the crew he is not really the Captain.......no matter what his hat says. Having too many Captains onboard is bad enough - not having any is a recipe for disaster.


Of course different rules if I am the crew

[Hud3]

Hiracer,

The CG response to my question stated quite clearly that there was no "all or none" policy for taking crew off of a vessel.

The question is really what is the definition of a "life threatening situation", because once that determination is made by the CG commander, he is "empowered" to remove all parties from the vessel. Whether he exercises that power is up to him--it's not automatic. I can see negotiation as a possibility.

I haven't read of any cases where the CG had to forcibly remove crew or master from a vessel. Maybe there are some, but I'm not aware of them. The CG personnel who fly and sail in harm's way to rescue sailors on the high seas are well trained, dedicated individuals. I think I would trust their judgment to do the right thing out there.

[David_Old_Jersey]

This cropped up on another (UK Based) Forum recently in regard to UK waters.

http://http://www.ybw.com/forums/sho...page=1&fpart=1

Obviously different rules apply etc - but I was kinda shocked that the RNLI (Volunteers) appear willing to act under orders from HM Gov.....for me kinda like hearing that the Samaritans actually work for the HMG

Having said that, one thread on a Forum does not make it all fact, but.............

[Catamount]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

This cropped up on another (UK Based) Forum recently in regard to UK waters.

http://http://www.ybw.com/forums/sho...page=1&fpart=1

David, your link is not working

I think THIS LINK will work (I hope)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Yeah, that's the one. Cheers.

[Hud3]

Interesting! "Mistakes were made..."

Is the consensus that the decision to "forcibly rescue" was made by someone at a desk, and not on the scene?

[holden-steady]

Gordy,

I have been both Engineer and Second Mate to Captain Fou, aka Martin L. Bowman III.

He is one of the most competant sailors I know, An ex army Ranger from Vietnam, I have known him for almost 35 years and he would charge hell with a bucket of ice water and win. He and I ran the Sports Fishing concession in Govenors Harbour in the late 80's and early 90's for a local "Charlie Cooper" also known as Sir Charles Cooper, having been Knighted by the Queen and known to the locals as "Calypso Charlie "for his original and very talented Calypso music career. They actually have a statue in Nassau in his honor.

What you have described is exactly what Fou would have done in the situation, He rode out Katrina on a Morgan 33 with two other Boats tied to him in Bay ST Louis, with a 30+ foot storm surge by himself and was standing on the bow of his intact boat when a team of Navy Seals looking for survivors came through. a side note ; He was better armed than they were. They were incredulous that he had succsesfully ridden out the storm and saved his boat and 2 others as well. They didnt get his weapons either.

He and I were ferrying a 65' Cat named Gemini II from Jacksonville to Goveners Harbour and it was my watch at about 02:00 hours and I noticed someone flanking us on radar and running an interception course, they were running without lights but we had older generation night vision gear , after several course changes and their corresponding responses I woke Fou up and we got ready, They made the mistake of trying to board us to take the boat I assume but they failed. I dont think they were a bother to anyone anymore.

Knowing Fou and having spent hundreds of hours in games of one upmanship with 22 target pistols, the only thing I consistantly beat him at, but I am a national match competition winner so he is no slouch . I Have no doubt as to the truth and originallity of your story , that is Capt Fou!

If you see or hear from the old Scoundrel tell him to look up Mike Holden, I havent seen him in several years. my email is holdencmc@yahoo.com

Thanks

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by holden-steady

Gordy,

I have been both Engineer and Second Mate to Captain Fou, aka Martin L. Bowman III.

He is one of the most competant sailors I know ...

What you have described is exactly what Fou would have done in the situation ...


If you see or hear from the old Scoundrel tell him to look up Mike Holden, I havent seen him in several years. my email is holdencmc@yahoo.com

Thanks

Greetings Mike, and welcome aboard.
Thanks for that! Fou remains one of my unforgetable characters. I haven't seen nor heard from Fou since that unforgetable time in '93.
You might be interested in a previous discussion, in which Capt Fou also figures:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ends-4254.html