Gaining specialized experience from planned encounters

[wsmac]

I'll be signing up and attending local sailing classes (Coronado 15's in a large lagoon) soon and hopefully find my first sailboat to buy (looking in the 25' ballpark). I'll also be looking around for other opportunities to sail with experienced sailors on their boats or mine.
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I've only sailed a little on Hobie Cats and my only instruction for that was reading about how sails work (took flying lessons many years ago which helped with the 'wing' theory), what 'tacking' was and doing it on the resort's cat the first time..... so... a place with resort lifeguards on jetskis.
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I'm getting to my question.. but first..
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I have taught Wilderness Survival for many years and one of the points I make to my students is not(after the class) to just buy a survival kit, or build a kit and call it good.
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I recommend practicing using the equipment you choose to put in your kit.
I recommend practicing in weather you would consider harsh or extreme... using the equipment in your kit.
I recommend buying 2 of certain things that are one-time use, or wear down with usage, so you have a fresh/new one in your kit for real survival situations.
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I apply this idea to other areas of my life as well.
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So now I come to sailing...
Here's just a couple of things I have thought of and I wonder how you all approach your education on these and other concerns in the sailing world.
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I will point out that I'm not looking for your advice to be my one and only guide on any matter. I take all suggestions, critiques, experiences, and biases... mull them over... and take out what I find valuable to me.
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Life preservers/PFDs... I've been looking at these for coastal/off-shore usage.
My eventual goal is to sail coastal with the eventual hope of major blue-water sailing in later years.
My personal take is to find one that fits my personal needs, meets CG requirements, then go jump into the water with it.
Am I correct that most people just buy them, wear them, hopefully regularly inspect them, and that's all?
With regards to all preservers... do you know how yours feels with you in your normal sailing gear... in the water?
With regards to inflatables... have you jumped into water to experience the sound and the physical action of the bladders inflating? Felt them pop you to the top? Tried to roll around in them and see how they do when righting you face up?
.
Lifelines... have you lowered yourself into the water while attached, in order to check the length? Do you actually know if you can use your arms and legs to pull yourself back up on the boat? If sailing with another person... have you two tried to bring someone back on board either attached to a lifeline or not?
.
Sailing... my personal opinion is that I should learn sailing first in weather that provides me with enough wind to learn in, but doesn't detract from those early lessons. Then as I get better, go out NOT just on 'nice' sailing days... but those windy, rainy days as well.
I'd rather go out on a planned 'poor weather' sail so I can learn what it's like to be rained on, blown around by unfavorable winds, catch spray into the cockpit, and even sit in irons hoping to find my way out of it without firing up a motor... but not be too far out in the ragged to be unsafe.
.
How did/do you work on your sailing skills?
How much of your equipment... for sailing, for boat maintenance, or personal safety... have you tried out... actually used in order to have that experience for a stressful time when it will be needed?

.
Just remembered while typing this how it was when I was learning to kayak.
The wet-exit drills, the Eskimo roll drills, etc... just another time when actually going through the experience while learning and training was commonplace.

[wsmac]

So my mind is in full gear... hahaha
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Reading my post over, one thought popped up.... in the case of failing through hulls. I saw where it was recommended to keep a wooden plug close by to stop water intrusions.
Seems to me, I wouldn't want to go out in the bay, knock out one of my stopcocks and see how good I was at inserting that wooden plug, then getting back to the slip without sinking or taking on too much water?
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But... what if I took a tub of sorts big enough for my two feet, created a sample through hull... put it into a bathtub or pool... then practiced my flooding emergency and wood plug fix, there?
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That might seem sort of an extreme... or worse... an example of my life and how much time I have on my hands and my sense of priority...

[Hydra]

In the course of training for Man Over Board rescue, I have jumped in the water with an inflatable PFD, in good weather and wearing a wetsuit: I didn't know how long it would take for the others to come back and get me.

In the first occasion, the PFD inflated perfectly (after the normal 2-second delay intended for avoiding inflation in case of wave impact).

The second time, the PFD didn't inflate automatically. It didn't inflate when I pulled the toggle. I had to inflate it through the blow tube. In fact, I had forgotten to check the Hammar inflator before jumping.

And we tested recovering an untethered person in the water. In good weather, it went smoothly. I am confident I could do it in moderate conditions but I don't trust my crew enough to have them recover me "for exercise" in such conditions.

Three times, we tested inflating an old life raft, capsizing it and putting it back right side up.

I met people who were on a chartered yacht that sank slowly in rough weather (they suspected a collision with a submerged container). In fact, they couldn't find the origin of the flooding: it was hidden behind the hull liner. Another cruiser had the propeller shaft disconnect from the gearbox and escape through the gland, resulting in a 1-inch hole. It took "some time" to find the origin of the flooding. Plugging it was easy.

I fear this kind of incident more than a failed through-hull but I don't see how I could train for it.

Five years ago, Yachting Monthly made videos and a book about some simulated incidents on a yacht: https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...rash+test+boat

Alain

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by wsmac

With regards to all preservers... do you know how yours feels with you in your normal sailing gear... in the water?

Yes.

Originally Posted by wsmac

With regards to inflatables... have you jumped into water to experience the sound and the physical action of the bladders inflating? Felt them pop you to the top? Tried to roll around in them and see how they do when righting you face up?

Yes.

Originally Posted by wsmac

Lifelines... have you lowered yourself into the water while attached, in order to check the length? Do you actually know if you can use your arms and legs to pull yourself back up on the boat? If sailing with another person... have you two tried to bring someone back on board either attached to a lifeline or not?

Do mean a tether? Lifelines are not meant to help you get back on the boat. They're to help prevent you from falling off in the first place.

If you meant a tether, the answer is yes and yes.

Originally Posted by wsmac

How did/do you work on your sailing skills?
How much of your equipment... for sailing, for boat maintenance, or personal safety... have you tried out... actually used in order to have that experience for a stressful time when it will be needed?

I've been sailing my whole life. I learn something new every day. As far as improving sailing skills go, racing can't be beat. As far as seamanship skills go, it's time on the water, nearshore, offshore, etc.

I've tried out all my equipment. Regarding safety equipment, that's a basic requirement of being able to use it...from PLBs to EPIRBs, to drogues, storm sails, etc.

You should take a Safety at Sea course. It's one thing to "try out" all your safety gear. It's another thing to know how to actually use it.

[toddster8]

... um. I thought tethers were also supposed to prevent you from falling off the boat in the first place. At least that's how I use mine.
I'm prolly doing it wrong, as usual.:face palm:

But re-boarding is a whole separate issue. If you don't scuba dive, you may not get a lot of practice in cold water areas. Boarding ladders need to be rigged so that they can be deployed from the water. Re-boarding while under way... Well, see above: don't fall off the boat.

[wsmac]

Hydra, thanks for sharing. Having never used nor owned an inflatable PFD, I was curious about discharging one for practice.
Wasn't sure if after use, it was a matter of just inspecting, deflating, replacing the C02, and packing it back up... or if after inflation, you had to have it packed by someone certified... sorta like skydiving and using your reserve.
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I plan on looking up and down the Northern California coast as well as up in Oregon to see about places that I can get training beyond basic sailing. I recall at least one outfit up in Alaska that provided training in open water survival.
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Suijin.... YES! a Tether!... but without the ball and post (never was all that good at tether ball... ).
Thanks for helping me with my ignorance. I tend to have this mindset that actually cringes when people use incorrect terminology... so in a way... you're helping me not to make cringy faces at myself! lol
Thanks for the link... I'll check it out.

My only boating experience, really, was when I worked for Sonat Subsea Services out of Morgan City, LA... thinking I was going to use any commercial diving experience in the Gulf of Mexico to launch my North Sea Commercial Diving career! Dang oil prices of the 80's bottoming out didn't help at all!
Anyway, safety was wearing to seat-cushion-like life preservers and a hardhat when on deck and not diving. The only thing tying a diver to the ship/boat was the umbilical... and MAN WAS IT LONG! hahaha
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Toddster8... we have cold water where I'm at. I was thinking that once I have my sailboat and my local crew, I could practice man overboard drills... maybe start with man-not-go-overboard drills first?

[toddster8]

Originally Posted by wsmac

I plan on looking up and down the Northern California coast as well as up in Oregon to see about places that I can get training beyond basic sailing. I recall at least one outfit up in Alaska that provided training in open water survival.
.

The Sailing Foundation
Although their 2017 session was last weekend. The instructors mentioned doing the same seminar in the Bay Area and SoCal, but those don't seem to be listed on their website?
You could also look at the commercial 40-hour marine "STCW Basic Safety Training." That's offered at a lot of coastal community colleges. Probably comparatively expensive though.

[toddster8]

Oh, and just a hint: If you attend one of those hands-on training sessions. Buy your extra re-arming kit before everyone rushes to to the nearest West Marine an hour afterwards. They don't stock that many of them.

For that matter, maybe somebody should actually warn WM in advance of one of these things.

[wsmac]

Thanks for the info on the courses.
Center Activities through Humboldt State University offers sailing classes from March through May, Beginning through Advanced, starting on Lasers and Picos for the Intro class, advancing up to Coronado 15's in the Intermediate class.
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I'm also looking for a small sailing vessel... like a Coronado 15 or similar... to add to my fleet so I can practice on the small boat (and hopefully get my girlfriend's teenage kids interested) before tackling my larger sailboat once I make that purchase.

[Ken Z]

whoa, relax, slow down. buy approve life jacket, the cheap, around the neck down the chest type, stow them out of sight but easy to get to if your sinking. shorten your life line so you cant go over the rail. Go sailing so waves fill the cockpit faster than the scuppers can drain the cockpit , of course i hope at that time you are not wearing apfd nor life line, have lunch, perhaps a onion and mustard sandwich, enjoy the ride, one hand for you ,one for the boat.
you'll be fine. less stress more sail. wait for beer thirty. relax, fix it when it breaks.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by wsmac

I'll be signing up and attending local sailing classes (Coronado 15's in a large lagoon) soon and hopefully find my first sailboat to buy (looking in the 25' ballpark). I'll also be looking around for other opportunities to sail with experienced sailors on their boats or mine.
.
I've only sailed a little on Hobie Cats and my only instruction for that was reading about how sails work (took flying lessons many years ago which helped with the 'wing' theory), what 'tacking' was and doing it on the resort's cat the first time..... so... a place with resort lifeguards on jetskis.
.
I'm getting to my question.. but first..
.
I have taught Wilderness Survival for many years and one of the points I make to my students is not(after the class) to just buy a survival kit, or build a kit and call it good.
.
I recommend practicing using the equipment you choose to put in your kit.
I recommend practicing in weather you would consider harsh or extreme... using the equipment in your kit.
I recommend buying 2 of certain things that are one-time use, or wear down with usage, so you have a fresh/new one in your kit for real survival situations.
.
I apply this idea to other areas of my life as well.
.
So now I come to sailing...
Here's just a couple of things I have thought of and I wonder how you all approach your education on these and other concerns in the sailing world.
.
I will point out that I'm not looking for your advice to be my one and only guide on any matter. I take all suggestions, critiques, experiences, and biases... mull them over... and take out what I find valuable to me.
.
Life preservers/PFDs... I've been looking at these for coastal/off-shore usage.
My eventual goal is to sail coastal with the eventual hope of major blue-water sailing in later years.
My personal take is to find one that fits my personal needs, meets CG requirements, then go jump into the water with it.
Am I correct that most people just buy them, wear them, hopefully regularly inspect them, and that's all?
With regards to all preservers... do you know how yours feels with you in your normal sailing gear... in the water?
With regards to inflatables... have you jumped into water to experience the sound and the physical action of the bladders inflating? Felt them pop you to the top? Tried to roll around in them and see how they do when righting you face up?
.
Lifelines... have you lowered yourself into the water while attached, in order to check the length? Do you actually know if you can use your arms and legs to pull yourself back up on the boat? If sailing with another person... have you two tried to bring someone back on board either attached to a lifeline or not?
.
Sailing... my personal opinion is that I should learn sailing first in weather that provides me with enough wind to learn in, but doesn't detract from those early lessons. Then as I get better, go out NOT just on 'nice' sailing days... but those windy, rainy days as well.
I'd rather go out on a planned 'poor weather' sail so I can learn what it's like to be rained on, blown around by unfavorable winds, catch spray into the cockpit, and even sit in irons hoping to find my way out of it without firing up a motor... but not be too far out in the ragged to be unsafe.
.
How did/do you work on your sailing skills?
How much of your equipment... for sailing, for boat maintenance, or personal safety... have you tried out... actually used in order to have that experience for a stressful time when it will be needed?

.
Just remembered while typing this how it was when I was learning to kayak.
The wet-exit drills, the Eskimo roll drills, etc... just another time when actually going through the experience while learning and training was commonplace.

PFD's

Most offshore cruisers and some coastal as well don't worry a lot about PFD's because they are tethered to their boats. (I'm talking singlehanders here since you haven't mentioned crew)

I wear my PFD when I think I have a chance to make it to land should I fall off if I'm not too far offshore otherwise I'm tethered to the boat. The PFD I do wear when I wear one is the one I bought for kayaking. The fartherest offshore I have been on the kayak is 4-5 miles. I keep my kayak assembled and on the deck of my 27' Bristol Sailboat.

Lifelines

Many sailor on here are old and couldn't pull themselves back onto their boats if their life depended on it. I can today if it isn't moving! Tomorrow or next week I'm not sure. The thing is to not fall off in the first place.

I haven't fallen off yet and hope to never fall off accidentally. Btw, this is my first boat with lifelines. My lifelines are polyester/dyneema that I have tied on. Actually they are laying on the deck now because my boat is in the slip

Sailing

You can practice sailing in most all weathers in protected waters. As for getting out of irons, don't forget backing up.

To get really good at sailing, race a boat you can skipper. You learn a lot like this much more that simply crewing

Also, older, small boats as first boats are good choices because if you make a mistake and hit something, run aground, get blown ashore due to improper anchoring etc it's not the end of the world.

Also, learning to sail on a boat without an engine teaches you lots about sailing as well. I sailed 15 years on beach cats without engines in races up to 100 miles. Before that it was old POS power boats

[wsmac]

Thanks again folks!
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My plan is to sail our local bay and big lagoon as much as possible... looking at a 15' online... contacted the owner up in Oregon... might head up and check it out. Trailer included!
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I understand we also have a Club that races our waters. Was told at least one captain has taken on folks for crew... something to look into as well!
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Sorta thinking I could start taking baths again (no... I haven't disavowed myself of routine body scrubbing... just showers and the occasional hot tub)... plop in with a couple of those little plastic boats and practice there also!
Sorta like Olympic Athletes doing that 'visualization' stuff before their world-record runs!... just more fun with sound effects too!
Wonder how the girlfriend would take it if I suggested we add THAT to our hot tub dates?

[Hydra]

Originally Posted by wsmac

Hydra, thanks for sharing. Having never used nor owned an inflatable PFD, I was curious about discharging one for practice.
Wasn't sure if after use, it was a matter of just inspecting, deflating, replacing the C02, and packing it back up... or if after inflation, you had to have it packed by someone certified... sorta like skydiving and using your reserve.

There are many types of PFD inflating systems. Until recently, the most common in France where I live was the Hammar hydrostatic. This is what I have on my PFD. After activating, it is necessary to replace the whole device, not only the CO2 cartridge. The kit isn't cheap, about 40€, and it is to be replaced after 5 years anyway.

Replacing and repacking isn't difficult and there is no need of a certification, even if Hammar encourages users to return to a shop for an annual check. By the way, it is good practice to inflate the PFD with air from time to time, especially after replacing the kit, to check that it is still airtight. Some models have been known to be defective and develop a leak.

Alain