Great Lakes, Nautical Terms: "big sea" and others.

[mcsmith1974]

Hey sailors! First time I've posted here. I am looking for some help and hope someone here is kind enough to provide it.



I am looking to publish a manuscript written in the late 1800's by my great grandfather about his time working on a steamship and yachting. He was a relatively poor kid who left school when he was 16 to work on the ship and its highly enjoyable to read his story.



In this manuscript, there are all sorts of nautical terms I've had to research and define for the sake of reader appreciation. I have found many definitions online but one of the terms he uses quite a bit is "big sea", "heavy seas", "large sea", "heavy sea running". I have NOT been able to find any definition on what these terms mean. Now, I can nearly deduce in context what he is writing but I am left uncertain. So, I am generating a glossary of terms and I want to have a clear definition of the term and its precise (or close as precise) meaning. Can you help with a working definition ?



1. For example, in this sentence: "It was slow going – wind dead ahead with a big sea."
2. And another example, in this sentence: "After awhile we were taking on some heavy seas, washing our deck from bow to stern, but we weathered it out all the way up Lake Erie to the Detroit River."
3. And another: "The seas got too large and we shifted our cargo, and that put us in a bad position."
4. Yet, another: "We saw a ship about two miles out blowing distress signals. There was a heavy sea running. We had a hard time making our way to her, then managed to take a line and started back to the Straits."






Finally, I posted this question to this forum but if there is another forum for the Great Lakes, particularly tuned to a historical sense, that you might think may benefit me in my research, it would be highly useful.



Thanks very much.
MC

[Alan Mighty]

Sea, seas: the surface motion on a body or water; the combined effect of wave and swell.

Used and attested in written English in that way since King Alfred in about 888.

In Modern English here's a quote from 1927 "The waves prevailing at any one time are spoken of collectively as the sea".

Or from 1769 "Sea … particular progress or direction" of the waves.

Or from 1582, the simple description "seas monsterus" as a contrast to King Alfred in c888 "smyltre sæ" (which translates to 'serene/peaceful sea"

So, to take your examples:

"big sea" = big motion on the surface of the water (big waves)

"heavy seas" = big waves

"seas got too large" = waves became jolly big

"a heavy sea running" = well developed wave pattern

[Alan Mighty]

From the Oxford English Dictionary 2nd ed.,

Headword "sea"

significance No. 5:

5.a With an epithet indicating the roughness or smoothness of the waves, the presence or absence of swell, etc. Hence without qualification = a heavy swell, rough water.

c 888 K. Ælfred Boeth. xiv. §1 Ful oft we faᴁeniað smyltre sæ. ***
c 1205 Lay. 12005 Þe sæ wes wunder ane wod and ladliche iwraððed. ***
1390 Gower Conf. I. 282, I wode as doth the wylde Se. ***
1555 Towrson in Hakluyt's Voy. (1589) 103 We‥found the entrance very ill, by reason that the sea goeth so high. ***
1641 Evelyn Diary 27 Sept., We‥sailed again with a contrary and impetuous wind, and a terrible sea. ***
c 1743 Woodroofe in Hanway's Trav. (1762) I. iv. lix. 275 When there is any sea, the breakers are visible. ***
1745 P. Thomas Jrnl. Anson's Voy. 114 We found a large under-rolling Sea. ***
1769–80 Falconer Dict. Marine s.v., A long sea implies an uniform and steady motion of long and extensive waves; on the contrary, a short sea is when they run irregularly, broken, and interrupted, so as frequently to burst over a vessel's side or quarter. ***
1834 Marryat P. Simple xxviii, We were now past Devil's Point, and the sea was very heavy. ***
1837 T. Hook Jack Brag xx, It was pitch-dark, a good deal of sea on. ***
1840 Longfellow Wreck of Hesperus xi, Some ship in distress, that cannot live In such an angry sea! ***
1865 Daily Tel. 8 Dec. 5/6 During the passage‥they had continued fine weather, and no sea.

5.b The direction of the waves or swell.

1769–80 Falconer Dict. Marine, Sea‥is‥applied by sailors‥to their [waves'] particular progress or direction. Thus they say,‥the sea sets to the southward. Hence a ship is said to head the sea, when her course is opposed to the setting or direction of the surges. ***Ibid. ii, Franchir la lame, to head the sea; to sail against the setting of the sea.

5.c A large heavy wave.

1582 Stanyhurst Æneis i. (Arb.) 21 Theire ships too larboord doo nod, seas monsterus haunt theym. ***
1632 Lithgow Trav. iii. 93 Two huge broken Seas, which twice couered the‥boat. ***
1769–80 Falconer Dict. Marine, Sea‥is‥applied by sailors, to a single wave.‥ Thus they say, a heavy sea broke over our quarter, or we shipped a heavy sea. ***
1861 Lady Duff-Gordon in F. Galton Vac. Tourists (1864) 121 A sea struck us on the weather side. ***
1892 W. Pike Barren Ground N. Canada 26 The heavy fresh-water seas broke with great violence on the weather shore.

5.d Roughness of the sea brought about by wind blowing at the time.

1927 G. Bradford Gloss. Sea Terms 152/1 The waves prevailing at any time are spoken of collectively as the sea, but they must be due to the wind then blowing. ***
1970 J. Verhoogen et al. Earth vii. 341/1 In the presence of the generating wind, waves have steep, sharp, asymmetric crests, and broad troughs, and the whole water surface is irregularly choppy. This condition is known as sea. 1977 Offshore Engineer July 35/1 In August 1975, the LWC began by using graphical methods to produce sea-swell forecast charts, combining ‘sea’, or wind-driven waves and ‘swell’, which is persistent wave movement continuing after the wind has dropped.

[Alan Mighty]

And, before GordMay shows up, welcome to Cruisers Forum MC!

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, mcsmith.


"Big" and "heavy" are relative terms (in the eye of the beholder), with no clear definition.

[mcsmith1974]

The definitions are tremendously helpful and so are your lines of thought.



If terms "big" and "heavy "do not equal to a numerical or measurable value, or a good sense of it in comparison against something else, then the reader doesn't truly know the severity of the sea; thus the opportunity for appreciation might be diminished.



This certainly does leave room for ambiguity but at least I can cite the perspective.


Again, appreciate the answers provided!

[Hardhead]

I believe they are all just subjective descriptions, like the term "big" may be applied to anything in ordinary life - meaning noticeably larger than whatever the normal is.

When I was on the Great lakes, waves upward of 6 feet high would have been called "big" by me. Heavy seas running would mean what others have said, a large, well developed series of regular 6 foot or larger waves I believe.

The Edmund Fitzgerald was sunk there, and "big" seas could also be monstrous, meaning 20+ feet, and breaking whitewater at the top.

I'd add that if the waves were regularly breaking (dangerous) the term "storm" would probably be in there somewhere.

"Swell" would mean large, very long/wide waves, like wide but gently sloping hills, but not breaking or especially dangerous.

Sounds like a neat manuscript-

[redhead]

Originally Posted by Hardhead

I believe they are all just subjective descriptions, like the term "big" may be applied to anything in ordinary life - meaning noticeably larger than whatever the normal is.

When I was on the Great lakes, waves upward of 6 feet high would have been called "big" by me. Heavy seas running would mean what others have said, a large, well developed series of regular 6 foot or larger waves I believe.

The Edmund Fitzgerald was sunk there, and "big" seas could also be monstrous, meaning 20+ feet, and breaking whitewater at the top.

Sounds like a neat manuscript-

Yes it does - please let us know when it's been published - sounds like a good read!

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by mcsmith1974

The definitions are tremendously helpful and so are your lines of thought.



If terms "big" and "heavy "do not equal to a numerical or measurable value, or a good sense of it in comparison against something else, then the reader doesn't truly know the severity of the sea; thus the opportunity for appreciation might be diminished.



This certainly does leave room for ambiguity but at least I can cite the perspective.


Again, appreciate the answers provided!

Lakers over a century ago would have had some dials relating to steam pressure, etc. and a compensated compass and oil lamps. Perhaps, if they were quite new, some very limited electrical lighting. They would not likely have had much in the way of wind speed instruments reliable enough to have provided context to the sea state.

They would have had, however, the Beaufort Scale, which equated the appearance of the sea in many particulars to the severity of storms. That scale was developed in the early 19th century and refined to the present day. The "Force 10" at Fastnet in 1979 represented a fully developed storm and there's the "bigness" of the "big seas/heavy seas" quantified with that category. Your ancestor would have known this, with the additional knowledge that the period of waves on the Great Lakes is generally a lot shorter than those of the saltwater ocean, and this means the quality of the rough conditions can differ, but that the "leftover seas" can subside more quickly. "Boarding seas" can be dangerous to crew on deck, but "green water down the lee side" can just indicate a vigorous day for sailing. A lot of this will be subjective, but it's less subjective than it once was.

[DMCantor]

I read that there were 25+ foot waves on Lake Ontario the other day. Now thats heavy seas!

We have sailed in reasonable comfort in seas that large on the Atlantic, but in shallow water, yikes!

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by DMCantor

I read that there were 25+ foot waves on Lake Ontario the other day. Now thats heavy seas!

We have sailed in reasonable comfort in seas that large on the Atlantic, but in shallow water, yikes!

I can confirm, from personal experience, those large waves on Lake Ontario. They are much steeper than ocean swells.

Here is Kingston, we had sustained winds of 40 to 50 knots over the last 24 hours, so massive waves would be expected out on the open lake. The fetch is well over 100 miles of open water.

At Niagara-on-the-Lake, a massive amount of water comes out of the Niagara river into Lake Ontario. When a big north wind is running, there are well known huge standing waves over a wide shallow area called the Naigara Bar. I had the misfortune of sailing over the bar into the river on one of those days.

On other days, the lake can be as flat as a sheet of glass.

My preference is something in between.

[mcsmith1974]

This is beautiful stuff guys, I am soaking it all in. Thank you.



I likely will have more terms and experiences and even places which I might need clarification, and for these queries I'll turn here for guidance, if you'd be willing to assist.



A few things I am working on now include: (1) deciding to include a good map of the Great Lakes around 1900 so that I might highlight the ports and bays (realizing some of these towns have been annexed, i.e. Charlotte, NY), (2) determining if I should attempt to include a character reference sheet of the persons he mentions, because after all, each life is important, (3) general edits, piecing together the narrative, and glossary of terms, (4) possibly including a photo or section of some of the lighthouses he references (Sodus Point Light, Stony Light, etc.).



Thanks again, and happy boating.

MCSmith





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[Hardhead]

To really make it a window back in time, you might try to include as many "then" and "now" photos as possible. IMO, it's neat to be able to get a personal view of what existence was like years ago, and relate that life to the same real standing places today.

It's easy to forget that we're just a passing slice in time (perhaps not the 'best'), and the same places that we walk today were just as real, and perhaps a little richer, generations ago. Outside of modern healthcare (a big one), I frequently think I'd have rather lived a century or two ago. To those that imagine such, what you have there is very interesting to read. Historical facts and statistics are objective, but something like a contemporary diary of the time certainly puts it into deeper perspective.

[mcsmith1974]

Here is another question on the manuscript word choice that I could use a little help with. I've exhausted pretty much everything here so I turn to you guys.

________

One of the boys said the only powerboat we know anything about we almost got run down by – a steamboat in the fog. She was headed, we thought, for Oswego. It wasn’t long before we saw another yacht pulling in. By noon the whole fleet was laying at anchor. My crew and I went ashore to timber up our legs.


________

The last sentence is written as "timber up" but my inclination is that it might be a typo for limber. I really do not know and its important I get this right. Is there some vernacular I am missing ? Any thoughts ?



Rounding out the near final edits...
Thanks,
MC

[Hardhead]

Maybe get strength back in the legs? Walk around a bit, instead of mostly standing?