Heave /Hove to -what are the limits?

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

Ive certainly read quite a few heavy weather tactics books but lately Ive been reading real life accounts of The Queens Birthday Race, Fastnet and Sydney to Hobart. In every case boats that hove to faired the best. Im curious what are the upper limits of sea stare where heaving to is a useful strategy?

Real life accounts of these races paint a very grim picture but say very little about the boats hove to. I suspect that it is because these boats faired fairly well and focusing on them is simply not dramatic reading. But, with out much detail, some of these boats might have simply been in better positions to take advantage of the tactic. But accounts really dont say.

I have read all the same accounts, and admittedly it was a few years ago now, but I don't recall many (if any?) Boats being hove to, and them having a higher survival rate. Could you post any references or give examples of the hove to boats?

Even the Pardeys, who are very much heaving to fans use a sea anchor off a bridle in very heavy weather. This tells me that even on a near ideal boat (heavy long keel, cutter), you really need more than just the tradional approach to cope with extreme weather. If I recall correctly Tilman got some nasty damage while hove to in the South Indian Ocean on Mischief, and again someplace in the north atlantic on Baroque?

I really dont think its a silver bullet. There really isnt one, except prehaps a series drogue, but this is a pretty committing option.

[Sea Dreaming]

Snowpetrel, I don't recall exact sources. These have been errant comments like "x and x boats hove to. All the hove to boats survived". Sorry, I can'T do better at the moment. But that's why I brought up the discussion. The facts are slim in these instances!
It's been a good discussion though. Kretschmer agrees with your assessment by the way. I am sure many others do too. Again the title of this thread "what are the limits" pretty well sums up what you and others have been talking about. There are always limiting factors. It's good to understand what they are. I appreciate your input inparticular. Real experience is invaluable. Barring that, input from those with real experience is also invaluable.
Thank you!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

Snowpetrel, I don't recall exact sources. These have been errant comments like "x and x boats hove to. All the hove to boats survived". Sorry, I can'T do better at the moment. But that's why I brought up the discussion. The facts are slim in these instances!
It's been a good discussion though. Kretschmer agrees with your assessment by the way. I am sure many others do too. Again the title of this thread "what are the limits" pretty well sums up what you and others have been talking about. There are always limiting factors. It's good to understand what they are. I appreciate your input inparticular. Real experience is invaluable. Barring that, input from those with real experience is also invaluable.
Thank you!

I cannot comment on 'The Limits' as so far I have not reached them.. either Hove to or Laying ahull..
I've never rolled or sunk to date using either tactic.. so guess I come under 'Inexperienced'..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I cannot comment on 'The Limits' as so far I have not reached them.. either Hove to or Laying ahull..
I've never rolled or sunk to date using either tactic.. so guess I come under 'Inexperienced'..

I would be afraid to lie ahull in extreme weather. Heaving-to in less than survival conditions is great, but I would be afraid of the boat's head being knocked or blown off in extreme weather (that's why God made parachute sea anchors, but I don't have one). Running off trailing something would be my choice. So far running off even without trailing stuff has served me well. But I'm also "inexperienced", so YMMV.


If Phil is "inexperienced", then I fear many of the rest of us, including me, haven't even been born yet

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[Sea Dreaming]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I cannot comment on 'The Limits' as so far I have not reached them.. either Hove to or Laying ahull..
I've never rolled or sunk to date using either tactic.. so guess I come under 'Inexperienced'..

Wise guy!

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would be afraid to lie ahull in extreme weather. Heaving-to in less than survival conditions is great, but I would be afraid of the boat's head being knocked or blown off in extreme weather (that's why God made parachute sea anchors, but I don't have one). Running off trailing something would be my choice. So far running off even without trailing stuff has served me well. But I'm also "inexperienced", so YMMV.


If Phil is "inexperienced", then I fear many of the rest of us, including me, haven't even been born yet

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Dockhead.. your too modest..
I'm just a suicidal nut case...

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

My initial search through the extensive section in OED on 'to' has not brought illumination in the sense that I can find no reference in OED that relates 'to' to the ideas of standstill, halt, or stop. It's tempting to think that 'to' might just mean 'to the wind' and not 'halt, stop, standstill'. I have found no explicit recognition of that either.

OED does deal with the "Action Verb + to" structure in section 'D. to adverb' of the its discussion of 'to'.


In D 8. the OED has the ultimate cop out: "D.8 Used idiomatically with many verbs, as bring, come, go, lay, lie, etc.: see the verbs."


As I noted in an earlier post, OED has under "bring" this:


25.b To cause (a ship) to come to a standstill.


1753 Scots Mag. Aug. 415/2 A guarda costa‥fired a gun to bring them to.


1769 Falconer Dict. Marine (1789), To Bring to, in navigation, to check the course of a ship‥by arranging the sails in such a manner that they shall counteract each other.


1803 Nelson in Nicolas Disp. (1845) V. 81 At 6.30 brought to the Vrow Agneta, Dutch Brig.


And similar nautical entries for "come to", "heave to", "lie to".


Interesting, section D of "to" has some non-nautical usage examples that seem relevant and are not dismissed as idiomatic usages.


Those usage examples include:


c 1386 Chaucer Miller's T. 554 Tehee quod she, and clapte the wyndow to.


1619 Fletcher Mad Lover iii. ii, Put to the doors.


1855 Mrs. Gatty Parab. fr. Nat. Ser. i. (1869) 61 The banging of the door, blown to by a current of wind.


1898 G. B. Shaw Plays II. Arms & Man 6 She goes out‥and pulls the outside shutters to.


So ... a ship can be brought to, meaning it is managed in some way such that it stops, halts, or stands still.


And also a door, a window, and a shutter can be made to, meaning that they are brought to a standstill, shut or closed, or brought into contact with something such as a wall, frame (or a doorway or window).


The OED writers thought that contact, between the window and its frame, the door and its frame or its wall, was the defining significance.


At first glance, bringing a ship to or heaving a ship to does not involve contact. But the ship examples all involve propinquity - the idea that a vessel that is heaved to, or lies to, stays in propinquity to or proximity to a place - even if that place is only defined or characterised by a lat and long.


A fitting subject for meditation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

OED does deal with the "Action Verb + to" structure in section 'D. to adverb' of the its discussion of 'to'.


In D 8. the OED has the ultimate cop out: "D.8 Used idiomatically with many verbs, as bring, come, go, lay, lie, etc.: see the verbs."


As I noted in an earlier post, OED has under "bring" this:


25.b To cause (a ship) to come to a standstill.


1753 Scots Mag. Aug. 415/2 A guarda costa‥fired a gun to bring them to.


1769 Falconer Dict. Marine (1789), To Bring to, in navigation, to check the course of a ship‥by arranging the sails in such a manner that they shall counteract each other.


1803 Nelson in Nicolas Disp. (1845) V. 81 At 6.30 brought to the Vrow Agneta, Dutch Brig.


And similar nautical entries for "come to", "heave to", "lie to".


Interesting, section D of "to" has some non-nautical usage examples that seem relevant and are not dismissed as idiomatic usages.


Those usage examples include:


c 1386 Chaucer Miller's T. 554 Tehee quod she, and clapte the wyndow to.


1619 Fletcher Mad Lover iii. ii, Put to the doors.


1855 Mrs. Gatty Parab. fr. Nat. Ser. i. (1869) 61 The banging of the door, blown to by a current of wind.


1898 G. B. Shaw Plays II. Arms & Man 6 She goes out‥and pulls the outside shutters to.


So ... a ship can be brought to, meaning it is managed in some way such that it stops, halts, or stands still.


And also a door, a window, and a shutter can be made to, meaning that they are brought to a standstill, shut or closed, or brought into contact with something such as a wall, frame (or a doorway or window).


The OED writers thought that contact, between the window and its frame, the door and its frame or its wall, was the defining significance.


At first glance, bringing a ship to or heaving a ship to does not involve contact. But the ship examples all involve propinquity - the idea that a vessel that is heaved to, or lies to, stays in propinquity to or proximity to a place - even if that place is only defined or characterised by a lat and long.


A fitting subject for meditation.

You put your finger on it. The idea of "stopping" is not in the word "heave", but in the word "to". Compare German "zu" - Ist die Tür zu? Mach das Fenster zu. Zumachen - close.

Heave to, bring to. "Heave", I'm sure, is from heaving sheets and braces to backwind the sails. Heave sheets and braces, lads, and bring the barky to - heave to.

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[Cap Erict3]

This topic holds a lot of potential in that those unfortunate enough to have sailed in conditions to severe to maintain a hove to state might post of their experience.

I am a fan of maneuver and think everyone should practice it.

Btw. My boat heaves to best under the main alone.

[El Pinguino]

I don't think you can pin down a 'limit' in regard to conditions in which you can safely be hove to. There are simply too many variables.

A nice new sea, short and steep, will imnsho be more likely to do you damage if you are hove to than if you are running. How big a short steep sea needs to be to do you damage while hove to is the mystery.

Once that short steep sea grows into something bigger its probably a far nicer and safer place to be hove to.

What I think is most dangerous is, whether hove to or not , is when you have a cross sea.

In my case it involved a fresh westerly gale which combined with a very deep low to the south was offering up a very heavy confused sea. We received a good smack while running... I think a similar result would have been forthcoming if we had been either hove to or under bare poles.....I further believe that on that day bare poles would have been the worst and most dangerous option.


Oh what joy it is to be cradled in the heaving bossom of the sea.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I cannot comment on 'The Limits' as so far I have not reached them.. either Hove to or Laying ahull..
I've never rolled or sunk to date using either tactic.. so guess I come under 'Inexperienced'..

Nah, I reserve my 'Inexperienced' jab for people who dont know what a leechline is, or confuse statue miles for Nautical miles...


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[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Nah, I reserve my 'Inexperienced' jab for people who dont know what a leechline is, or confuse statue miles for Nautical miles...


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The Statue of Liberty has has how many miles?

In my neighborhood we can get some confused seas in a good breeze; where currents, swells and winds don't necessarily cooperate: "potato patch" areas as they say.. I'd rather spend as little time in them as possible: running reaching, anything! Heaving to there will lead to heaving... lunch over the side.

[Schooner Chandlery]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I don't think you can pin down a 'limit' in regard to conditions in which you can safely be hove to. There are simply too many variables.

A nice new sea, short and steep, will imnsho be more likely to do you damage if you are hove to than if you are running. How big a short steep sea needs to be to do you damage while hove to is the mystery.

Once that short steep sea grows into something bigger its probably a far nicer and safer place to be hove to.

What I think is most dangerous is, whether hove to or not , is when you have a cross sea.

In my case it involved a fresh westerly gale which combined with a very deep low to the south was offering up a very heavy confused sea. We received a good smack while running... I think a similar result would have been forthcoming if we had been either hove to or under bare poles.....I further believe that on that day bare poles would have been the worst and most dangerous option.


Oh what joy it is to be cradled in the heaving bossom of the sea.

I find it pretty funny that the forums are just full of "limits" and worries of the biggest bad thing that could happen. IMO it's not the big open ocean with the nasty huge storm that will get you--it's the odd little moments of inattention, exhaustion, and the nearby land that wreak havoc.

In the open ocean, the confused seas at the beginning large weather systems would probably be most uncomfortable hove to as waves are from two directions. We've sailed a couple times in those conditions in the beginning hours or days of a gale or just when two different weather events have sent waves converging in odd ways where we were sailing. I don't image a good heave to experience there.

I've only had a single "uncomfortable" hove to experience to relate. It was more "irritating" than unsafe.

We were sailing north in Hecate Strait in early spring, totally exhausted after a 4 day period of sailing in nasty seas and weather. Once up a ways up inside the Strait it gets shallower, the seas were not that big (maybe 8 ft?) but we had breaking waves, powerful, short and steep and we could not achieve anything that remotely looked like a slick of calmer water to protect us from the seas.

My husband and I were just wanting a couple hour break--the perfect reason to heave to.

It was not to be. Hove to, our situation was not unsafe aboard our big heavy boat but just not what you want from heaving to. We were still under staystail alone as we'd sailed the previous night going about 7 kts broad reaching with the tiny staysail. The winds had shifted from the SW and were now from the WNW, the heavy tidal currents through the Hecate Strait weren't doing us any favors either. After he was done fiddling with the sail a bit (it's a boomed self-tending staysail so you can't just "back the sail" you have to prevent the sail to back it) my husband, who had a bad cold/flu came inside, not happy, and said "that's all I'm doing with it." In lesser winds, it would have worked. Backing the staysail was letting us fall off way too far, centering the staysail was better but we were not hove to we were more like sitting with bare poles because the tiny staysail was still keeping our nose down more so than the rudder could point us upwind. We have a cutaway forekeel on our full keeled boat and this means the bow really wants to go where the wind wants to take it--downwind--if we don't have sufficient sail area deployed.

It was 41F outside and the wind blowing 35 kts but a glorious sunny day. We were getting knocked around by the waves because we needed more sail up to dampen our beam-on roll. Of course then we'd really be forereaching not hove to.

I knew we'd do better with a bit of the mainsail up--but too much would be a bear. I was internally cursing that for this boat we don't have a trisail or Swedish mainsail because, of course, that would have been very helpful and I could have worked a hove to status with trisail alone--might have been perfect. Or at least an easier way to beam or close reaching nicely in this mess. With no 3rd reef in the main, we typically just keep it down in heavy weather--and down it would stay for the heave to in Hecate Strait. On our boat, next best thing would be to raise and reef the gaff foresail and either leave up take down the staysail depending upon whether I want to sail or heave to under foresail alone. If I were going to do the work to get the gaff foresail up, I was going to sail, not heave to. The goal was to either have that nice slick of calmer waters to protect us or somehow sail with enough canvas to dampen the roll and get enough momentum to counter the hits of the breaking waves.

I considered it, started the engine to allow myself via autopilot to point into the wind easily while hoisting the foresail. But, all bundled up in warm foulies and a wool cap, once out in the cockpit with my short fingered sailing gloves on, my fingers were feeling like I was in a deep freeze and my arthritic ankle crying "uncle," my titanium hip saying "WTF?" and the rest of my body saying "remember, you're no spring chicken."

Even though that combination of wind and temperature calculates out to 27F, I'm telling you it felt like -27F. I thought about it and decided there was no way I was going to fight the rolling deck and hoist that sail alone since we typically both work together to hoist and reef sails. Especially in nasty conditions. Especially when my would-be rescuer was so sick he might not even notice if I went overboard (not sure how, with our jacklines, but hey...) My partner in all exciting endeavors, daredevil that he is, was sitting inside miserably sick and I was a lonely cold rabbit all on my own. I scurried back inside.

I put the engine in gear, at idle, and at the inside steering, played with a fake heave to using engine, rudder, and staysail. I thought this might work well--engine and rudder to weather, the wind and little staysail and cutaway forekeel pushing us to lee. Surprisingly, the engine at low rpm was worthless at the endeavor but just managed to get us into more rolly rolly forereaching. Not helpful and still beam-on to nasty breaking short steep seas.

I was concerned about fuel use on the trip so not really willing to use a lot of engine power.

My husband, laying below on a main saloon seat, was laughing at me through his coughs and hacks. At least I was providing entertainment.

We had spent the night broad reaching diagonally UP the Hecate Strait comfortably--with that in mind I did the smart thing, I turned off the engine, turned the boat downwind and "deleted" the night's gains towards AK, but sailed comfortably downwind for 9 hours to duck behind an island, into a tight anchorage, and there we dropped anchor and rested.

The "limits" might include these funky powerful short, steep, breaking waves in the shallows.

Had we been in the deep open ocean we would not have faced these little steep breaking seas of the shallows of Hecate Strait. Even so, it is much easier and more restful in these particular conditions to just sail on--upwind with sufficient sail to dampen the rolls and hits or downwind with less sail area.

Fair winds and following seas,

[DivingOtter]

Truth is, some boats do it well, others don't it all. Just depends on the vessel. My boat won't do it at all because it's 25 ft, water ballast and extremely responsive. My friends boat which is 35 ft can hove to in some pretty heavy stuff and it's extremely comfortable given the circumstances.

[SteveSadler]

Good subject, lots of experience documented in this string. My experience is it works well if practiced beforehand. We use it to "pull over and park" to get things done, engine work, foredeck work, galley work, and also to recover hats gone overboard, our way of training for more important recoveries. A wheel lock is important here, lines on the wheel can chafe the leather and create tangles. As mentioned chafe is a problem long term.
I have yet to see a condition it won't work in relative safety. But is just one of many techniques available to us. Running with drogues is one but speed can create the momentum needed to pitchpole or broach, my last resort. Reaching under reduced sail is another favorite as it allows us to steer around breaking seas, or head up to push through a breaker, surfing is avoided as broaching is dangerous. Motion is relatively mild given the sea state.