Heaving to a Bavaria 42 Cruiser?

[philiosophy]

I wonder how many times when I asked a Captain what his Storm Tactic was. This question posed over the last 12 years of steady cruising. More times than not I am proudly told " we have a Jordan Drogue". I always ask have you used it? All but one said something like, no but we watched the video. The one who did use it got pooped more than once.
I think a lot of the time people are lazy and want a false sense of security. Skip Novak said he had Storm Drogue aboard( probably required by Insurance) " I would only put it out in anger". I interpret that to after all else fails.
For crying out loud people. Heaving To has been around for hundreds of years.

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A modern properly engineered AP , is incredibly reliable, on two atlantic crossing the AP steered for the whole voyage , running continuously for 3 weeks. it arrived with no issues, even though we carried a spare linear drive in one case . Once you add solar the old issue of AP power is relegated to history



Hence wind vanes are almost redundant , certainly if you look at the equipment ARC statistics , over the last 15 years the wind vane is almost completely obsolete



Having done two ocean crossing and many deoo sea journeys over 5 days , Id have no hesitation in relying on my AP. It will always steer better then a windwave anyway , if setup properly with rate gyros etc

Wouldn't leave home without a wind vane....and the good thing is you won't need electricity for them to work.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Icarus

Wouldn't leave home without a wind vane....and the good thing is you won't need electricity for them to work.

Free solar electricity. You need some electricity on a boat anyway. Also modern transom doors make wind vane mounting difficult.

Never mind the fact none is fitting them anyway to cross the Atlantic ( 3 boats crossed over recently departing from Greece , no wind vanes.

You fit what you like but most people are not fitting windvanes.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by philiosophy

I wonder how many times when I asked a Captain what his Storm Tactic was. This question posed over the last 12 years of steady cruising. More times than not I am proudly told " we have a Jordan Drogue". I always ask have you used it? All but one said something like, no but we watched the video. The one who did use it got pooped more than once.

I think a lot of the time people are lazy and want a false sense of security. Skip Novak said he had Storm Drogue aboard( probably required by Insurance) " I would only put it out in anger". I interpret that to after all else fails.

For crying out loud people. Heaving To has been around for hundreds of years.

Yes but modern boats have not been around for hundreds of years.

I can only offer my experiences in modern lightweight fin keel and rudder boats. I don’t find these reliably and properly heave except in conditions where I could keep sailing anyway ( I’m excluding mild weather heaving to ) I agree with boaty that forereaching is more likely at typically 2-3 knots.

My experience is with modern sloops so I cannot comment on cutters , ketches etc.

Unlike the series drogue guy that just watched videos. I’ve streamed warps and seen the effect in big seas and big winds.

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by philiosophy

I wonder how many times when I asked a Captain what his Storm Tactic was. This question posed over the last 12 years of steady cruising. More times than not I am proudly told " we have a Jordan Drogue". I always ask have you used it? All but one said something like, no but we watched the video. The one who did use it got pooped more than once.

If you read some of the accounts on Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base, you will find that some find the little cones on the drogue are damaged from use, sometimes irreparably, diminishing its effectiveness.

The problem with the para-anchors, even though the work well at bringing the bow into the wind, is chafing and the rode, which sometimes parts.

Certainly, everyone should practice with their devices. Many of the authors of the storm tactics books advise flexibility, and being prepared to use different techniques, depending on the conditions, meaning everyone should carry, and be prepared to deploy, a staysail, storm jib, trysail, drogue, and para-anchor.

Some of the responses here indicate a rejection of reading about storm tactics, a rejection of attempting certain tactics, and a rejection of even carrying the devices necessary to approach a storm with flexibility. It is the same attitude that says, "my boat is safe for 99% of the conditions I am likely to encounter, therefore I am fine." That attitude keeps supplying the disasters at sea and Coast Guard rescue subforums with accounts.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

If you read some of the accounts on Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base, you will find that some find the little cones on the drogue are damaged from use, sometimes irreparably, diminishing its effectiveness.



The problem with the para-anchors, even though the work well at bringing the bow into the wind, is chafing and the rode, which sometimes parts.



Certainly, everyone should practice with their devices. Many of the authors of the storm tactics books advise flexibility, and being prepared to use different techniques, depending on the conditions, meaning everyone should carry, and be prepared to deploy, a staysail, storm jib, trysail, drogue, and para-anchor.



Some of the responses here indicate a rejection of reading about storm tactics, a rejection of attempting certain tactics, and a rejection of even carrying the devices necessary to approach a storm with flexibility. It is the same attitude that says, "my boat is safe for 99% of the conditions I am likely to encounter, therefore I am fine." That attitude keeps supplying the disasters at sea and Coast Guard rescue subforums with accounts.

Well only the 0.001% get into trouble. So not too bad !!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

...Many of the authors of the storm tactics books advise flexibility, and being prepared to use different techniques, depending on the conditions, meaning everyone should carry, and be prepared to deploy, a staysail, storm jib, trysail, drogue, and para-anchor...

...Some of the responses here indicate a rejection of reading about storm tactics, a rejection of attempting certain tactics, and a rejection of even carrying the devices necessary to approach a storm with flexibility...

Sailor Sailor I respect your opinion but I hold a different view.

We have never carried a staysail, trysail, drogue, or para-anchor (we have a storm jib, never used) and we have cruised successfully and safely for 35 years and crossed all of the word's oceans. That is not to say that we think there are not conditions which would warrant use of them. We know such conditions exist (though we've never encountered them).

It's not that we are opposed to such devices, it's that we feel they are unnecessary.

I read Allard Coles (it was my first book on sailing) but originally we didn't have either the funds to purchase such devices or room to carry them. Then as we gained experience, including surviving weather heavy enough (on more than one occasion) to sink several boats and cause the loss of lives, including friends of ours, we learned techniques to cope without staysail, trysail, drogue, or para-anchor and we developed approaches to storm tactics that we feel are adequate. For those tactics we carry the equipment and we have practiced them.

We have experience with winds over 60 knots and large waves. We also have a plan for even higher winds or bigger waves. Not having staysail, trysail, drogue, or para-anchor it might not be perfect for us in those cases but we are confident that we can cope, so we don't need them.

Our view is, why should we carry that type of equipment year after year, ocean after ocean, which is is inconvenient 24 hours a day 365 days a year, when we can carry other equipment which we need and will use daily, if we have some confidence that we can cope with the hardship, however imperfectly, of not having them if that "perfect storm" does come along?

[bensolomon]

I have a legend 37.5. I can heave to in a variety of conditions, but sail area and traveler have to be adjusted according to wind and Sea conditions. One of the posters above mentioned setting the rudder and someplace less than hard over. I experimented with that, but it was too unpredictable so I had just sail area to allow the helm to go hard over.

Some of the production boats have larger main sales, and mine is one of those. Therefore, I have to reef the main aggressively to heave to in stronger conditions or she will tack through the wind.

In addition, someone posted about the Pardy's storm tactics. I think it is important to remember that their heaving to almost always involved deploying a para anchor, and not just setting the sails accordingly.

I single hand quite a bit, and if I need to use the head, prepare meals, land a fish, enjoy a sunset, or even fix something, heaving to has been handy to be able to do. I was helping a friend relocate his Jeannaeu 42 and we needed to take a break so the whole crew could eat together. His boat hove to beautifully and that boat has in mast furling, as a side note.

So.....to the OP, it is doable, but will take some experience with the boat to dial in the correct sail area and helm position.

[barryglewis]

Wingssail,
could you give us a brief description of your heavy weather techniques and plans as mentioned in the quote below?
Also,
What is the displacement of Wings, and ballast ratio?

How do you race without a trysail? Here in Australia storm sails I think are mandatory for Cat 3 and above

Originally Posted by wingssail

Sailor Sailor I respect your opinion but I hold a different view.

We have never carried a staysail, trysail, drogue, or para-anchor (we have a storm jib, never used) and we have cruised successfully and safely for 35 years and crossed all of the word's oceans. That is not to say that we think there are not conditions which would warrant use of them. We know such conditions exist (though we've never encountered them).

It's not that we are opposed to such devices, it's that we feel they are unnecessary.

I read Allard Coles (it was my first book on sailing) but originally we didn't have either the funds to purchase such devices or room to carry them. Then as we gained experience, including surviving weather heavy enough (on more than one occasion) to sink several boats and cause the loss of lives, including friends of ours, we learned techniques to cope without staysail, trysail, drogue, or para-anchor and we developed approaches to storm tactics that we feel are adequate. For those tactics we carry the equipment and we have practiced them.

We have experience with winds over 60 knots and large waves. We also have a plan for even higher winds or bigger waves. Not having staysail, trysail, drogue, or para-anchor it might not be perfect for us in those cases but we are confident that we can cope, so we don't need them.

Our view is, why should we carry that type of equipment year after year, ocean after ocean, which is is inconvenient 24 hours a day 365 days a year, when we can carry other equipment which we need and will use daily, if we have some confidence that we can cope with the hardship, however imperfectly, of not having them if that "perfect storm" does come along?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barryglewis

Wingssail,
could you give us a brief description of your heavy weather techniques and plans as mentioned in the quote below?
Also,
What is the displacement of Wings, and ballast ratio?

How do you race without a trysail? Here in Australia storm sails I think are mandatory for Cat 3 and above

OK, here goes.

In the first place the only races I did on my own boat in Australia did not require Cat 3 and there was no mention of trysail requirements. Nowhere else in the world has made that a requirement for me either. Most recently in significant international racing in the Caribbean there was no mention in the rules of trysails. We raced in Cat 0 in the USA and it was not a requirement. Perhaps it is now.

Our displacement is around 16000lbs (7273kg) plus liveaboard equipment (approx additional 2000lbs (900kg). The ballast ratio is 40%.

As for our heavy weather tactics we simply reduce sail area as the conditions worsen.

• Up to 20 true: full main and 85% jib-second reef at 21 true (we usually have no first reef line reeved)
• At 30 true we will be on the third reef, still with the 85% jib.
• Beyond 30 kts of true wind what we do depends on the forecast. Usually we would simply drop the jib and sail with only a third reef'd main. But if the wind came up quite quickly, or seemed like it would go higher and last longer, we might heave to with the main and the jib.
• In extreme conditions (over 50kts) we have had success being hove to with the 3 reef main and the 85% jib.
• Higher conditions we might change to the storm jib or no jib at all. We ARE able to stay hove to without a jib but it requires attention. We have not experienced this often.
• In the highest winds we are prepared to drop the mainsail and use only a 85% jib or the 45% storm jib. We do not know if we could heave to in those conditions. Ideally we would heave to with a three reef main and a storm jib, I just don't know if it would work. If not, we would try to sail either slowly upwind under storm jib or run off with whatever warps or items we could deploy. We would use the windvane to provide some relief for the crew, it is strong and powerful.
• We do not plan to lie a-hull, moving is better for us, but exhaustion would be the issue. Basically we would be experimenting. In 38 years we have not ever seen conditions over 60 knots so it is an unknown for us.

I want to add that if we are sailing off the wind the stages happen at higher wind speeds. We have sailed with a large genoa and a full main in 40 true, on a broad reach.

That is our plan and approach. Perhaps it is optimistic, but hopefully, if presented with those extreme conditions, we will find a way through it.

[barryglewis]

Wingssail, thanks for the quick and thoughtful response!

[Bowdrie]

Measured against the annals of time in regard to the history of seafaring, this is but a moment.
It was not that long ago when it was standard procedure for smaller craft, (and the lifeboats on large craft,) to be equipped with a flax or tightly woven cotton bag, together with a container of oil.
The bag would be filled with the oil and either hung over the side or streamed behind as conditions warranted.
The act of "Pouring oil on troubled waters" goes far beyond a mere figure of speech, it has in fact contributed to the survival of many a mariner.
But I suppose that many today would consider such action a travesty and outrage upon the planet.
The phrase "In Extremis" may be quite subjective, but also the phrase; "Desperate situations call for desperate measures" should not be dismissed out of hand.

[Rucksta]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

Measured against the annals of time in regard to the history of seafaring, this is but a moment.
It was not that long ago when it was standard procedure for smaller craft, (and the lifeboats on large craft,) to be equipped with a flax or tightly woven cotton bag, together with a container of oil.
The bag would be filled with the oil and either hung over the side or streamed behind as conditions warranted.
The act of "Pouring oil on troubled waters" goes far beyond a mere figure of speech, it has in fact contributed to the survival of many a mariner.
But I suppose that many today would consider such action a travesty and outrage upon the planet.
The phrase "In Extremis" may be quite subjective, but also the phrase; "Desperate situations call for desperate measures" should not be dismissed out of hand.

Have tried this a few times with limited effectiveness.

If the boat is not moving ahead of the slick it works up to a point.

Where the crests are breaking the slick is effective and improves comfort.
Once the wave becomes so steep it begins to collapse the slick is ineffective.

Breaking crests are not a boat breaking life threatening situation.
To utilise desperate measures for the sake of comfort could be an indication of lack of alternatives due to poor preparation.

One place you may have few alternatives is in a life raft.
Life raft is uncomfortable in calm seas and extremely uncomfortable in conditions that caused your boat to leave you.

Deploying an oil slick means you have oily water sloshing around in the raft.

If you want discomfort to the point of debilitation then this is an effective means to achieve it.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bowdrie

...It was not that long ago when it was standard procedure...

To consider women on board a ship to be bad luck.

To avoid bananas on ships.

To stay in port rather than leave on Friday.

But yes, desperate situations call for desperate measures.

So yes, pour oil on troubled waters and pray they do not catch fire.

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by wingssail

OK, here goes.

In the first place the only races I did on my own boat in Australia did not require Cat 3 and there was no mention of trysail requirements. Nowhere else in the world has made that a requirement for me either. Most recently in significant international racing in the Caribbean there was no mention in the rules of trysails. We raced in Cat 0 in the USA and it was not a requirement. Perhaps it is now.

Our displacement is around 16000lbs (7273kg) plus liveaboard equipment (approx additional 2000lbs (900kg). The ballast ratio is 40%.

As for our heavy weather tactics we simply reduce sail area as the conditions worsen.

• Up to 20 true: full main and 85% jib-second reef at 21 true (we usually have no first reef line reeved)
• At 30 true we will be on the third reef, still with the 85% jib.
• Beyond 30 kts of true wind what we do depends on the forecast. Usually we would simply drop the jib and sail with only a third reef'd main. But if the wind came up quite quickly, or seemed like it would go higher and last longer, we might heave to with the main and the jib.
• In extreme conditions (over 50kts) we have had success being hove to with the 3 reef main and the 85% jib.
• Higher conditions we might change to the storm jib or no jib at all. We ARE able to stay hove to without a jib but it requires attention. We have not experienced this often.
• In the highest winds we are prepared to drop the mainsail and use only a 85% jib or the 45% storm jib. We do not know if we could heave to in those conditions. Ideally we would heave to with a three reef main and a storm jib, I just don't know if it would work. If not, we would try to sail either slowly upwind under storm jib or run off with whatever warps or items we could deploy. We would use the windvane to provide some relief for the crew, it is strong and powerful.
• We do not plan to lie a-hull, moving is better for us, but exhaustion would be the issue. Basically we would be experimenting. In 38 years we have not ever seen conditions over 60 knots so it is an unknown for us.

I want to add that if we are sailing off the wind the stages happen at higher wind speeds. We have sailed with a large genoa and a full main in 40 true, on a broad reach.

That is our plan and approach. Perhaps it is optimistic, but hopefully, if presented with those extreme conditions, we will find a way through it.

Australian Sailing requirements for Category 1 (e.g. Sydney to Hobart):

(a) Storm jib; area compliant
(b) Storm trysail; area compliant OR mainsail reefing 50% of luff
(c) Heavy weather jib; area compliant