Heaving-to myths.

[Ericson38]

Originally Posted by StuM

Against an upper shroud? i.e. above the spreaders?

Stays are the Uppers, intermediates, and fore and aft Lowers. On our Cutter Taswell 49 with double spreaders, the jib sheet would be stretched tight across the upper (outermost) stay. Depending on clew height, the vertical location is between deck and lower spreader.

On a cutter, you would furl the jib in, roll out some staysail (sheets are already ran inside the stays), sheet in on the windward side (backwinded).

[MicHughV]

I agree with the comments posted here....
There is a time to heave to...and a time to run off.....heaving too....works...up to a point, then it doesn't work anymore and it's time to run off...
Offshore, big seas don't break like surf on the beach...it's more a case of the tops being blown off....you'll know when it's time to run off.....

[CassidyNZ]

Running off is a good strategy provided conditions support it and I practise it mostly.

But when the boat is doing 9kn under bare poles, very dark nightfall (storm conditions) arrives and you can’t see the huge seas that are pushing you along, the feeling of the boat taking off down a huge swell (surfing) has got immense pucker value.

I have had conditions where even heaving to was not an option (wind strong enough to shred any exposed sail), lying a-hull was the only choice during which we got knocked flat in pitch darkness by a broken wave. Not fun.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Running off is a good strategy provided conditions support it and I practise it mostly.

But when the boat is doing 9kn under bare poles, very dark nightfall (storm conditions) arrives and you can’t see the huge seas that are pushing you along, the feeling of the boat taking off down a huge swell (surfing) has got immense pucker value.

I have had conditions where even heaving to was not an option (wind strong enough to shred any exposed sail), lying a-hull was the only choice during which we got knocked flat in pitch darkness by a broken wave. Not fun.

This is where a speed limiting device like a Jordan Series Drogue is (IMO) the best answer. Much has been written about their usage so no point in going over it once again, but their past performance does support their enthusiastic supporters claims.

Jim

[Scott Berg]

Every boat will heave to differently; for us it's a backwinded staysail and mizzen. The key is to PRACTICE. Best place is protected water but high wind. Try it till it's 2nd nature; Best books were Pardey's and Cole in my experience for older designs and Leonard for modern ones

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This is where a speed limiting device like a Jordan Series Drogue is (IMO) the best answer. Much has been written about their usage so no point in going over it once again, but their past performance does support their enthusiastic supporters claims.

Jim

Indeed, some kind of a brake would give much more control. I don’t have a lot of deck storage and I believe the JSD uses up a good deal of space when packed. I’m leaning more towards a conical sea anchor/drogue on 100 metres of line.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

Running off is a good strategy provided conditions support it and I practise it mostly.

But when the boat is doing 9kn under bare poles, very dark nightfall (storm conditions) arrives and you can’t see the huge seas that are pushing you along, the feeling of the boat taking off down a huge swell (surfing) has got immense pucker value.

I have had conditions where even heaving to was not an option (wind strong enough to shred any exposed sail), lying a-hull was the only choice during which we got knocked flat in pitch darkness by a broken wave. Not fun.

CassidyNZ, What strength wind would you say would shred "any" exposed sail?

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by wingssail

CassidyNZ, What strength wind would you say would shred "any" exposed sail?

My worst exposure to storm weather was sustained 80kn gusting 85 which ripped our whole cockpit enclosure off the boat into the sea and damaged the stacpac. Never had any exposed sail but I reckon it would have been torn if exposed.

Oh, and don’t misinterpret “any” sail as including storm sails. Rather than reading “any” sail, read “any sail”. There is a distinction between them.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Scott Berg

Every boat will heave to differently; for us it's a backwinded staysail and mizzen. The key is to PRACTICE. Best place is protected water but high wind. Try it till it's 2nd nature; Best books were Pardey's and Cole in my experience for older designs and Leonard for modern ones

Good advice. Every boat is different. Best to know which tactics work for a given boat before you go. Ive been aboard with owners who had no idea how to heave to on their boat.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

My worst exposure to storm weather was sustained 80kn gusting 85 which ripped our whole cockpit enclosure off the boat into the sea and damaged the stacpac. Never had any exposed sail but I reckon it would have been torn if exposed.



Oh, and don’t misinterpret “any” sail as including storm sails. Rather than reading “any” sail, read “any sail”. There is a distinction between them.

Ive hove to under reefed staysail on a cutter rig in 65 gusting 85. Seas about 25' (wind was from on shore, crew swears waves were twice that size! [emoji6]). Rode it out like a duck. Had coffee, meal, got some sleep.

Wave pattern was regular with no crossing wave trains. Thats important for heaving too...large crossing waves could put you in a dangerous position. We only got water over the decks a couple of times.

Surprisingly the brand new bimini was undamaged. These conditions were unforecast so we had not removed canvas.

[thinwater]

A JSD is not classified as a speed limiting drogue, it is a stopping drogue. Boat speed is reduced to only 1-3 knots. Speed limiting drogues include the Shark, Gale Rider, and Delta drogue, which are functional at speeds of 4-6 knots.


Not sayin' which is better--that is a longer conversation.

[Jim Cate]

A JSD is not classified as a speed limiting drogue, it is a stopping drogue. Boat speed is reduced to only 1-3 knots

Huh??? Sure sounds like a speed limiting drogue to me. 1-3 knots is surely a reduced speed and not stopped!

A parachute anchor deployed from the bow might well be called a stopping device... one does not want to be making any sternway under such conditions.

Jim

[Don C L]

hmmm going slower with your stern to the breaking waves or stopped with your bow on the breaking waves... I kinda like the sound of option B better, if I had to choose and could only pack one device.
(oops, forgot to say I am thinking of para-anchor for stopping, not the JSD)

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

All the advice on heaving-to tends to read:

"All you have to do is tack the boat without releasing the jib sheet and voila with a few adjustments to the mainsail and rudder you are hove to for heavy weather".

That is patently NOT true.

Doing that puts a huge point load on the upper shroud where the sheet has to stretch across it to the clew of the now back-winded jib.

That point load would be very dangerous in heavy weather to the rig. And not desirable in moderate conditions.

I can only conclude this heaving-to advice comes from those that don't actually do it. Or purposely leave out a bunch of other complicated steps that are necessary to accomplish it.

When we tried it recently on our Valiant Esprit 37 with a partially reefed 110% jib, I felt like the entire mast could come down with the jib sheet stretched bar tight high against the upper shroud. And even if you ignored that eventuality, the shroud would most likely saw through the sheet due to chafe riding out weather.

The only means to heave to must involve carefully running a second sheet (on a bucking, rolling, awash deck) inside the shrouds adjusting the jib sheet car accordingly, while at the same time trying to keep what is now two sheets on a flogging clew from whipping themselves furiously into macrame knot.

And to get going again you would have to laboriously undo this ad hoc solution of multiple sheets.

Comments? Better advice?

Thanks,
Journeyman

IMHO 110% is a genoa, not a jib. Nobody recommends heave to with a genoa. Unlike genoa jib is sheeted inside of the shrouds. Problem solved..

[hpeer]

JSD

I can not recall where I have read the descriptions but indeed a JSD is classified differently from normal drogue.

With a normal drogue you desire to slow the boat to a manageable speed, so that she remains under control but is not taking the full force over the transom. 3 to 6 knots IIRC.

The JSD has more breaking effect and will slow the boat substantially more. Down towards 1 to 3 knots.

The JSD is less dependent on being set back the right difference as its resistance is asserted all along the line. A drogue’s resistance is asserted at one point back, which can cause the line to slack and the boat to surge. That also makes them easier to retrieve than a JSD.

Both devices are deployed from the stern as opposed to a parachute anchor which will is designed to STOP the boat in the water column and is normally deployed from the bow.

I am not qualified to argue the various devices and their relative advantages. My understanding is a normal drogue works well in less sever storms, JSD when things approach survival level and a parachute anchor is not a great idea. At least one poster here has had experience loosing about because he deployed a drogue too early, it slowed him too much and he consequently got pooped and took down flooding.

Not trying to argue, simply pointing out the various strategies and thinking. I am sure that like most things it depends upon the boat and circumstances. My compromise is to carry 2 drogues with enough line to deploy both different distances astern. I have never approached the need to deploy one, except as a flopper stopper.

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