heaving to vs lying ahull

[BigAl.NZ]

Some of the people in this thread may no longer be around, but I am curious when do you put your sea anchor/drogue off the bow vs the stern?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by BigAl.NZ

Some of the people in this thread may no longer be around, but I am curious when do you put your sea anchor/drogue off the bow vs the stern?

The one time I used a sea anchor , never again , it subjects the boat to extreme forces , and often cleats are not up to it etc.

My best experiences in F10, F11 was streaming warps while running downwind.

[BigAl.NZ]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The one time I used a sea anchor , never again , it subjects the boat to extreme forces , and often cleats are not up to it etc.

My best experiences in F10, F11 was streaming warps while running downwind.

I shudder to imagine the forces. If you do go downwind, I presume that decision to change direction (if needed) must be done early. I dont fancy being beam on!

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by BigAl.NZ

Some of the people in this thread may no longer be around, but I am curious when do you put your sea anchor/drogue off the bow vs the stern?

Answered many times before: sea anchor from the bow and drogue from the stern. They’re not reversible.

The decision to use one or the other is a one way decision - once it’s made and the conditions subsequently worsen, changing from one method to the other is pretty much impossible.

[JPA Cate]

Actually, assuming you carried both, you could cut away a sea anchor, if you wanted to shift to a JDS. But then you'd lose it, too.

The commercial JDS is lightly constructed, with the cones not hemmed, so they wear out fast. They can be constructed much more strongly, as Seaworthy Lass did with her most recent one.

In the archives, there is a post by mikereed, who discusses his use of a JDS on a catamaran, and which points to ways to make it work better. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ce-119799.html

Friends of ours in a Vertue (~24 ft) lay for 3 days to a sea anchor in Bass Straits one year. They survived to tell the tale.

Ann

[goboatingnow]

On a modern spade rudder surfing in itself is not dangerous. Hence I’ve never seen any need to have more drag then about 200 feet of warp in a U of the stern.

There’s no way you want to stop the yacht , bad idea. You merely want to slow her as she flies down the face of the wave.

We found in the big Gale with the warps deployed the AP could handle the boat for a while , giving the crew a much needed rest.

Can not see the need to slow the boat below 6-7 knots in a modern yacht.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Actually, assuming you carried both, you could cut away a sea anchor, if you wanted to shift to a JDS. But then you'd lose it, too.

The commercial JDS is lightly constructed, with the cones not hemmed, so they wear out fast. They can be constructed much more strongly, as Seaworthy Lass did with her most recent one.

I just got some cones from ocean brake and they were hemmed. They were also made of dacron instead of nylon. They weigh twice as much as the non-hemmed cones made of ripstop nylon.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

On a modern spade rudder surfing in itself is not dangerous. Hence I’ve never seen any need to have more drag then about 200 feet of warp in a U of the stern.

There’s no way you want to stop the yacht , bad idea. You merely want to slow her as she flies down the face of the wave.

We found in the big Gale with the warps deployed the AP could handle the boat for a while , giving the crew a much needed rest.

Can not see the need to slow the boat below 6-7 knots in a modern yacht.

I respectfully disagree with you. You said "gale" not sure what this is. Have you navigated in a full storm? your U warp from the stern isnt enough. 6-7 knots is not really slow enough in my opinion.. I think 4-5 is considered safer. Even if you dont flip over, if you are going very fast the boat can get knocked sideways by a wave more easily then a breaking wave can cause damage. This happened to me. It depends on the boat.

Further, its a good idea to have the drogue work without the autopilot required because who knows... maybe even the rudder breaks or some electrical problem or whatever.. and you can throw the drogue then sort out the steering issue.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I respectfully disagree with you. You said "gale" not sure what this is. Have you navigated in a full storm? your U warp from the stern isnt enough. 6-7 knots is not really slow enough in my opinion.. I think 4-5 is considered safer. Even if you dont flip over, if you are going very fast the boat can get knocked sideways by a wave more easily then a breaking wave can cause damage. This happened to me. It depends on the boat.

Further, its a good idea to have the drogue work without the autopilot required because who knows... maybe even the rudder breaks or some electrical problem or whatever.. and you can throw the drogue then sort out the steering issue.

Well this was a deep Atlantic F10-F11 for 36 hours. Is that enough “ Gale “ for you. How about western biscay in 55-50 Kn or north west Ireland 60 knots over the deck. !!! ***

Drogue will not steer a fin keel with the rudder gone.

You do not want to go below 5 knots in my opinion under that steering is unresponsive, you must retain the flexibility to steer across wavefronts and or to avoid breaking waves. Also in large gales the wave motion in the throughs of the main set are even more problematic and you need quick steering responses to handle them.

The key with modern boats is to leverage the better hydrodynamics over older designs. That’s means active steering that means keeping speed up near or just below normal ( I’m talking 40-45 footers here )


The goal is not to stop the boat. The goal is to prevent broaching as you run off , broaching at the wrong time can result in a 360 roll.

The pardeys advice in my opinion ( and alard Cole’s ) is now so dated as to be academic.


( *** plus a bad one off Holland and a very nasty one off Casablanca and a other approaching Madeira )

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by BigAl.NZ

Some of the people in this thread may no longer be around, but I am curious when do you put your sea anchor/drogue off the bow vs the stern?

There is a database available online at Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base, with an abundance of real-life specific experiences and learned opinions. There are also multiple storm tactics books, including ones by the Pardey's, John Neal, and other experts.

https://dragdevicedb.com/

You would be well advised to disregard some of the "expert" opinions on this forum, particularly if you consider the poster's own choice of sailboat make and model as an appropriate bluewater sailboat. Also, some of the poster's experiences seem to be exaggerated and/or imaginary or defy commonsense.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

There is a database available online at Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base, with an abundance of real-life specific experiences and learned opinions. There are also multiple storm tactics books, including ones by the Pardey's, John Neal, and other experts.



https://dragdevicedb.com/



You would be well advised to disregard some of the "expert" opinions on this forum, particularly if you consider the poster's own choice of sailboat make and model as an appropriate bluewater sailboat. Also, some of the poster's experiences seem to be exaggerated and/or imaginary or defy commonsense.

You’d also be well advised to query very dated advice like the pardeys which is based on hull forms and techniques not in common use today

As the BS of your last paragraph. Well there’s no answer to abject nonsense.

I’ve delivers boats over 25 years and experienced some really nasty stuff , experiences in a few cases I never want to see again especially F10 in the Atlantic , I was 4 days late making my designated landing and my wife was in bits as z result , ever since then I’ve carried a sat phone.

Few people can write up good storm tactics applicable to modern cruisers because sadly many didn’t survive.

What all of this has taught me is what’s written in books doesn’t translate well to real life or may be very specific to the writer.

It’s also a huge function of boat and crew. The 60 knots of the NW of Ireland was in a ocean racing boat , well equipped with a strong numerous crew. Very different to say a husband and wife in a production boat caught in a bad storm.

Secondly sea state plays a huge part. In the deep ocean the sea can be huge but regular so that the key is retaining manoeuvrability certainly not stopping the boat.

In other sea states ( one of the biscay ones was a real pita) you could have very confused seas ( on that journey a colleague lost his boat ) where drogues has very dubious utility.

The very worst was one whilst the wind was not overly high , there was a big wave train running down the trough of the main set. We took two knockdowns in that one.

Hence my advice is based on my own experiences and observations in respect of modern fin keeled and spade rudder boats.

1. Always keep sailing if at all possible, I’m a fan of running off downwind. ( in the main)
2. Don’t stop the boat only slow it if you risk a broach. ( modern boats don’t take well to being pooped in my experience)
3. Boats are tougher then the crew.

We had a friend of the owners on one trip. ( crossing biscay in November ) he commented “ you guys are complete lunatics “ I suppose he had a point.

Any way having used up a goodly proportion of my nine lives I now potter about the Ionian ( avoiding Medicanes mind you !!)

You can’t learn storm tactics from a book , you learn it through experience. That’s how the pardeys learnt theirs and it how you will learn yours. Hopefully you’ll have good skippers or crew to help.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

I just got some cones from ocean brake and they were hemmed. They were also made of dacron instead of nylon. They weigh twice as much as the non-hemmed cones made of ripstop nylon.

Glad to see they're hemmed now, Sean, and made of polyester. Yes, the weight is a problem, for bigger boats in particular.

Ann

[goboatingnow]

I would say my experiences with the steaming of the warps was interesting , we did run out weight to the line ends , 30 l Jerry cans (2) as we initially found the loop was been thrown out of the water by the wave action. Possibly a longer warp so that it’s on the other side of the wave would have been useful. But I can’t say.

What was interesting was the warp in the water was “ bar tight “ , no way it could be pulled in by hand. As she ran down the wave face , she’d start to slew to port or starboard and the opposite line would visibly “ jerk “ her stern back enough to halt the start of a slide.

It was very interesting to watch . The ability to manoeuvre was useful in plotting courses to avoid breaking waves. Even so we took one bad one but everything hung together.

On a subsequent trip we had a form of series drogues on board and in high winds I was keen to try it. But either it was not setup right or whatever but it virtually stopped the yacht and we hauled it back in.

Personally I don’t think modern yachts have reliable attachment points fir devices that attempt to arrest motion completely either from the bow or the stern. Pardy had very strong Samson posts. We typically don’t.

I think these days with modern forecasts , we don’t see too much survival sailing weather so maybe the experiences are different.

I know it thought me a lot. One was an appreciation for some modern hull forms. The other was the awesomeness of the ocean in a storm.

[MicHughV]

I can talk from experience.

Caught in a violent storm, I tried a half dozen things, streaming warps, anchors, etc.
None worked worth a damn.

I didn't have a drogue onboard, so I fashioned one by wadding my storm jib into a big ball and streaming it behind the boat on a 150' anchor line.

This did the job. It slowed the boat down to a manageable 3-5 knots sliding down a wave. We were, off course, under bare poles.

The line was a 5/8" anchor line. It would be bar tout every time we took off.

My boat was steel, and the aft cleats were quite large double 1" dia. stainless steel pipe cleats welded to the boat. The strain must have been enormous. I'm not sure a regular cleat on a fiberglass would be up to it. At the very least, I'd rig a bridle to both aft cleats to distribute the load.

We were in this mess for about 3 days. Without our makeship drogue, we'd have been in serious doodoo.

The nice thing about the drogue is that it does give you some limited steerage way, this is useful during the day to try and angle your slide.

At night, you won't see a thing. It will be pitch black and likely raining like crazy. You will learn to listen to the hiss of the crest as it slides towards you so you can take some type of evasive action.

When I was finally able to haul the storm jib back aboard, I was unable to untie the knot that held it all together. This had "fused" together from the strain and had to be cut loose.

I totally agree with the above. Keep the boat moving.

If were to ever find myself in another such like storm, I would do the exact same, ie, stream a drogue from the stern. On a fiberglass boat, I'd try to distribute the load to winches, etc. You might have to get a bit creative here depending on your vessel.

Managing boat speed means the crest will likely lift your stern, instead of rolling over you, though that is unavoidable. Water will find its way inside your boat, I was quite surprised much water had made it's way below.

We were only two aboard and by the time the 3rd day rolled around we were exhausted to the point of being delirious.

The inside of your boat will become total chaos, everything, and I mean everything that is not bolted down will by flying around. Everything on deck that I had lashed down was gone, everything !!

After the worst had passed, we both slept like babes in the cockpit.

We had plenty of searoom around us, which was a good thing, as were blown a good 100 miles off course. Were you to be closer to shore, you would likely have to come up with another plan.

Hope this gives you some guidance.

[Greatest Lakes]

When I was a kid, my dad had a brand new spinnaker in a sailbag tied to the stansion on the starboard side near the bow. We were leaving in the afternoon from Racine Wisconsin, and it was supposed to be a mostly calm night. It wasn't. Never did get to see that sail up. We always wondered if it washed up somewhere and someone else got use of it.