Heavy weather sailing, your strategy?

[Oceansailor]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

I don't believe in the idea of a 'best' stratgy. What works for one boat and crew may not work for others or even for a different sea state. A confused cross sea or wond over current may need a different statagy. You need to sort out what works for you and that only comes with experience. I remember reading Larry Pardy on storm tacktics and being most impressed not by his statagy but by the fact that he could sit comfortably on the deck of a small boat in huge seas and whatch how things work. That shows imense experience and confidence!
Not a cat sailor but my understanding is that the critical factor is how much grip the hull has on the sea. A light displacement shallow hulled cat can apparently skid sideways accross the surface and so get out of the way of large waves. A heavy hull with lots of grip can burry the lea hull and trip over it. These two would require very different stratagies in survival conditions.
Remember that what counts is wave face angle and crest stability. I have seen waves of 60ft plus in 50kns plus that presented few problems because they were long period stable waves in deep ocean and all from the same direction. At the other extream I have been in near survival condition in 35kn with 15ft waves in a coastal tide race becuse the faces wher so steep the boat was out of control surfing down the wave fronts and in danger of broaching. No sea room precluded stratagies like hoving too.

Perfect answer. Nothing to add.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

I have been doing alot of research on sailing in heavy weather, beyond 3rd reef stuff and the more I research the more confusing it is. Basically our options:
1. Lying a hull- taking everything down, securing deck, and let the boat handle itself. Many do this and many are overturned with beam on waves. Me being on a catamaran, this strategy is not one my go to strategies.

2. Bare poles sailing dragging drogues to slow down down waves. This has two options, surfing down the waves at an angle and risk wave breaking upon you but you never reach the bottom of the wave. Montessior used this method without dragging drogues and found the boat very happy but the helmsman must know how to do it and it is very fatiguing. The other option is straight down the wave and let the wave break over the stern. Unfortunately, this can somersault the vessel as in "Once is enough".

3. Parachute with bow into the wave or as the Pardey's insist in making a slick with 50 degrees to bow on wind. As a catamaran, the go to strategy is bow into the wave with parachute but the pressure on such devices is significant. Many lines break. Deck cleats ripped out. Etc. Plus the rudders are exposed to pressure.

I would like to hear from sailors that have been exposed to big breaking waves and used some of these strategies. The biggest seas, I have encountered was 26' (non breaking) with winds of 50 knots. Nothing big but would like skippers to educate us on how they would handle big breaking waves. I encourage stories and mistakes made as learning tools. If there are other strategies not mentioned-please post.

Having been in this situation on a Santana 30 in the Molokai Channel during small craft warnings, I found the best solution was to maintain enough sail to enable me to steer. Keep the bow on into the approaching swell which was about 40' that night about fall off slightly at the top of the wave to slow the boat down so as to reduce the pounding on the hull (I later found out we were dealing with 20 year old standing rigging) and to keep the bow from burying at the bottom of the wave (pitchpoling). It was raining so hard I could barely make out the companionway most of the time so the cockpit was three inches deep in water. I hate surfing with a sailboat - too easy to pearl and get side ways to the swell which on this night would have bee no bueno.

There were four somewhat experienced sailors (including me) on board but unfortunately, they all got extremely sea sick, so I was left to man the helm on my own for five hours (I don't get sea sick) The only reason we were out there is because the Volvo engine we had only worked every other Sunday and attempting to get back into the Ala Wai Yatch Harbor under sail in those conditions would have been suicidal.

We, in the end, were competent enough to weather that situation and finally made it into Manele Bay Harbor on the Island of Lanai but good sailors would never have left the dock that night.

On an unrelated note: the people of Lanai are great and they all seem to be happy you're there even if you aren't staying in their five star hotels. Aside from the diving and great snorkeling, there isn't much for boaters to do on Lanai, but there is a free shuttle that runs from the marina (which is very easy to enter) to the small village and Koelele Lodge up the hill as well as the Manalel Bay Hotel. This would be a must stop if any of you ever find yourselves in that corner of the Pacific

[sailingchiro]

I absolutely enjoy all the posts. I have learned and confirmed strategies to use. All of you have great points. Thanks for your contributions.
Interesting someone used the Pardey method with success. I would like to try this out on a 30-40 knot day in the Gulf. Which direction did you lock your helm? Leeward to heave to.
As someone pointed out, there are definitely different strategies for different situation. Depending upon the seastate.
Reading about the guys that have had breaking waves over them, I think most will request storm covers for all hatches and portholes as well as faster drain holes in the cockpit.
I think fatigue is a major factor in determining strategy as well as competence of crew at the helm.
Thanks again for your wisdom. I don't think any of us can learn to much regarding heavy weather sailing. When we are 300 miles offshore or more, we at the mercy of the seas.

[Marathon1150]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

... as well as faster drain holes in the cockpit.
I think fatigue is a major factor in determining strategy as well as competence of crew at the helm.

I can add that Marathon has huge cockpit drains (2 x 8cm pipes going out the transom) but the volume of the cockpit is significant so the amount of water to be drained was also quite significant. So even though the cockpit drained quickly, it was not initially fast enough to keep all of our cockpit cushions from floating away Fortunately the companion way hatch did not leak, nor did the cabin top hatches or portlights. When we left Vancouver my "to do" list was not quite done. "Plug dorades" was on the list but was not attended to. sigh....

I also agree with a previous comment that every boat is different and developing a strategy unique to the boat, skipper and crew is important. Risk tolerance varies highly as does hull behaviour.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Marathon1150

I also agree with a previous comment that every boat is different and developing a strategy unique to the boat, skipper and crew is important. Risk tolerance varies highly as does hull behaviour.

The problem of course is that until you get involved in a serious weather event, you don’t know what that strategy should be for your boat, your crew and yourself.

If the event is serious enough, a lack of strategy could be survival-critical. That’s why it’s probably good for sailors reading threads like this to compare details related by those who have been in the thick of it, their boats, their conditions and their actions and adapt them to your situation/condition. That way you enhance your ability to cope better the first time you’re in it.

Nobody deliberately heads into a serious weather event but those that have experienced one and come out the other side are better off for the experience. Those that haven’t should try to learn from others’ experiences.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by psp2psp2

The hardest part of the procedure was the one thing I hadn't foreseen and therefore we hadn't practiced, and that was properly securing the furled jib so there would be zero chance of it opening once we had the storm jib up.

AGE OF SAIL - Home

Don't have much to contribute to this thread yet (thankfully)... We do carry a correctly sized Jordan series drogue, which a lot of research and reading led me to believe is the best choice for us.

But regarding the above quote, it would seem any one of the over-the-rolled-jib storm jibs (like Storm bag, gale sail or an Ullman) would do great in this regard....no? I'm still debating which one to purchase.

[JPA Cate]

Our only experience with over 50 kn winds was when a small cyclone passed over us at Raoul Is. many years ago. It had been predicted to go between Tonga and the Kermadecs. It was a late season one, mid-May, called Lisa.

The eye went over us, and we mistook that for it going away. When the wind came back, from the other direction, our previously safe anchorage became a lee shore. The wind was too strong to motor out against, so we put up the storm jib and motor-sailed, tacking, to get clear of the islands. Then lay hove to all night long, and set off in the morning for Tonga.

It was only possible to use this strategy because it was a small cyclone, and, at that point, fast-moving away, so the seas were not what you would expect.

The worst seas we were ever in were the seas in a cut off low off Australia, only 45 kn of wind, but two large sets of seas, and we were rolled down past spreaders in the water, broke the auxiliary rudder wind vane, bashed in the dodger windows on the downhill side and rolled right back up. This event does not really qualify for the OP's standard for the question. However, we were then fore-reaching slowly on course towards our destination, under storm jib, and Jim thinks we were dumped by a confluence of the two sets of seas. As it happens, we were both below at the time, him in his berth, and me holding onto the hand holds by the companionway, getting ready to go back outside. It was major creepy to see water coming in through the dorade, and have time to stuff a towel in it.* After the event, we rescued the broken rudder, and used the electric autopilot, and headed for Brisbane.

@ Sojourner: The concern about those storm jibs is how much chafe they would deliver to the sail they go up over, and of course, at what point do you put it up (can you put it up going downwind so the sea state is smoother?). If your inner sail is on a roller, and stoutly enough made, you can use it rolled up as much as necessary to give control. It really only takes a scrap of sail when the wind is fierce.

Ann

*This is not hero sailor stuff; I was lucky. With bad luck, I wouldn't have been clipped in yet, above decks, and little chance of doing it with the boat rolling down.

[roland stockham]

Originally Posted by sailingchiro

Interesting someone used the Pardey method with success. I would like to try this out on a 30-40 knot day in the Gulf. Which direction did you lock your helm? Leeward to heave to.
.

Unfortunatly this may not work. I trid it in 35kn and the loads are just not high enough for things to settle. Larry pardy makes this point in his book on storm tactics. In my case there was no slick and a tendency to flip through the wind. Drif9t was unmeasurable or we fore reached. When I ditched the sea anchor and hove too we forereached at about 1.5kn which explained why the sea anchor would not set.

[jeff356]

There is a YouTube sailing channel that now have a 51' Outreamer but earlier had a Lagoon 38 which they crossed the Pacific and ran into the same conditions that you are explaining.

Remember watching that video as they surfed along under bare poles as that was their solution.

Perhaps worth a watch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzJu17GiN9E

Jeff

[moseriw]

an all man's rule says: "the wind is not the problem but the waves"
And of course which boat you have.

With my V47 Vagabond full-keel ketch we once had full main and full genua (42m²) out as the furler was broken. Long waves of around 20ft downwinds in a Mistral. Max was 61 knots. We'd put in the 3rd reef in the main and left the genoa as it was - no chance to pull it down or reef it. And in fact: No problem at all. (OK the genua did make it through but was done by then)

This year we had 36 knots with 2nd reef in main and 1/3rd genoa = 24m² and it was a cool halfwind ride.

Once I had 55 knots with a 54 sloop and 1/3 main and 1/3 genoa. No problem at all.

In spite of this I will use the try and storm jib at 80+ knots of wind. (And I will try to avoid this weather at all, because this is out of every limit)


So what are you talking about?

OK it makes a BIG differene to have a V47 long-keel with 20 tons or some new speed constructions 45ft - 12 tons ore even a "rolling" and stumbling cat.

[anacapaisland42]

Has anybody tried the old fashioned, well tested "dragging an oil bag", it seems to me the main issues are "breaking" seas and who knows it might work?





Bill















[QUOTE=sailingchiro;3016360]I have been doing alot of research on sailing in heavy weather, beyond 3rd reef stuff and the more I research the more confusing it is. Basically our options:

[Oceanairre]

In a 51’ monohull taking a blue water cert course sailing from Florida to Bermuda in the Gulf Steam. A cold front and suddenly formed low pressure system collided building 35’ seas and 40+in winds. Despite having drogues, warps....aboard, we surfed following seas, steering down the waves at an angle, bearing away from the storm. One novice in the group lost the angle and almost pitch poled us, the bow swung around and we nearly put the mast in the water. Very fatiguing/challenging trying to maintain the angle in the dark of night. Downside is that the constant hammering of the following seas astern blew water up the intakes and we lost the engine, having to be towed into St George’s upon arrival.

[Bill Balme]

Applying the appropriate tactics towards a given situation is absolutely the best way. I think a single tactic would be a weakness - with perhaps the exception of deploying a series drogue if you have one. Deployed properly, these basically stop the boat (OK you make 1 - 2 knots to leeward) and the crew can go below and rest. Your boat most likely has to be modified to use a series drogue - a really strong attachment point is key - and even beefy cleats will get ripped off.
I don't have a series drogue - I have a Galerider - designed to slow the boat but not stop it. With the reduced loads, it can be attached safely to our large cleats.
I've not had to deploy the drogue, but on our first trans-Atlantic, we did end up trailing a warp (300ft rope with a short length of chain at the end). We had 35knots, gusting to 45, with 25ft swells - probably 12-15 seconds. Far from apocalyptic, but I used the conditions to try some stuff out. We were rounding up into each wave as it went through, but when I deployed the drogue, we tended to maintain course much better. It also slowed us from an uncomfortable 10 - 12 down to a very manageable 7-9kn.

Another time, preparing for our passage down from Newfoundland, we decided (for the first time) to hank on the storm jib to our removable babystay... A much stronger than forecast situation arose on our second night out - wind quickly rising from a very nice 15-20 on the beam to 45kn sustained (highest gust 55). When it started looking bleak, we decided to hoist the storm jib - this would be it's first use in anger - and it took quite a while to sort everything out - such that by the time we'd finished, the wind was up at 45kn.
We initially had a third reef in the main - (makes our main the size of a try), but with the nasty 20ft x 8-10 second seas, we opted to run off, with the wind over our starboard quarter and then dropped the main altogether for fear of possibly gibing. We sat through that lot for 16 hours and once winds had dropped back to manageable levels, reset out course for Shelburne, NS.
Note: we now ALWAYS hank on the storm jib before leaving on a multi-day passage.

A good eye on the weather has for the most part kept us out of harms way - we'll always choose to avoid if that's possible - which it usually is...

[Angel Louise]

On our double-handed crossing of the North Atlantic we carried a Jordan Series Drogue. Between the Azores and Falmouth England we encountered storm force winds and seas opposing us. We tried bare poles for 20 minutes but found we were doing 7.65 knots in the wrong direction (our hull speed on Angel Louise is only 7.2 & we very infrequently get up to that).

We deployed the JSD with 150 cones on a 300’ line. We hung on it via a stern bridle for 24 hours when the wind dropped down to 25-30. Calculated distance and found it cut our speed to 0.45 knots. Was able to pull in via a line over side of bridle, then up to a forward snatch block led to winch which we ran for seconds between the waves...took 1 hour and ten minutes to pull it in.

Before the JSD we had attended a seminar with Lin and Larry Pardy and had purchased a 14’ parachute, but sold it after reading Drag Device Databook, and built the JSD with advice from the late Don Jordan to install secure attachment points for Bridle. For attachments we installed thick piece of marine plywood on each rear outside corner with 5200 and bought 4 stainless steel rigging tangs with 5 ss bolt holes and installed outside one each side drilling thru backing and using 2nd tang as Last backing plate inside plywood sandwich. We keep bridle rigged before trip and have drogue in an Ikea bag ready to deploy. Take a look at Don Jordan’s text at JordanSeriesDrogue DOT com .

We cruise on a Catalac 12 Meter Catamaran.

[Captain Zen]

From Cabo Verde going west in January years ago the huge waves from behind broke under my 36' ketch. The rudder did nothing in the foam. It was bad. Not having a sea anchor I tied fenders on lines to slow down, several until the speed was so that the waves broke in front of me. A storm jib made the Aries wind vane steering comfortable. I went hull speed despite the slowing down.