Help Heaving to on my boat

[gpeacock]

Wow everyone! Great responses.
Thanks for all the great posts.
During the last storm we never saw more than 35 knots but the big seas were being driven by a big low to the south of us. If we could have gotten the boat to sail at 10 or 20 degrees higher I believe we would have had no problems with getting our centre cockpit pooped as the slick seemed to be protecting the back end of the boat.
We have in the past managed to get her hove to many times. The issue in all the cases on this passage were the bigger seas and our lower profile heavy air sails losing power in the troughs of the waves.

I'm hesitant to try going to main alone with 1 reef because I expect it would be really had to eliminate leech flutter above 30 knots. Haven't tried that though... The storm staysail hanked off the backstay sound like something that might be worth a try. We have the extra halyards to make that happen. That would also get rid of the bag on the foredeck... Not an easy thing to transition to though unless we had a dedicated sail set up there.

Basically up till now we've done a pretty good job of coming up with sails plans that work for us in varying conditions. It wasn't until this passage that we discovered a big hole in our thinking and realized we dont know how to deal with big seas but winds that aren't equivalent in strength.

Im pretty angry at myself for not trying the trysail but we've never raised it in anywhere close to those conditions and I was pretty knackered. Based on a bunch of the responses here, Im correct in assuming I needed to move the CE aft to get the boat to point higher. I guess the only other option is to add power by increasing the size of the jib or main which would allow the boat to push up through the seas by giving the hull more flow to work with. I expect the increase in speed though would mean more submarining though which our boat is very good at.

SO, in summary: Homework for the next time we are in winds above 20 knots... See if we can tack through the wind with just the Trysail... Anything else?

[gpeacock]

Originally Posted by StuM

Which is why I'm still waiting for the OP to come back and describe his rudder position.

Sorry for the 23 hour delay in posting. We just arrived in a fantastic new country to us and as such I only get to spend a few minutes each day at the computer. Yes, I know it is a hardship.
Gary

[gpeacock]

Originally Posted by zstine

And the mainsail was sheeted in I assume, not luffing? If so, then try to reduce the head sail's force (smaller sail, sheeted different, or tacked farther aft) or increase the main's driving force, less reef etc... You can also try a little less helm. Like 15 degrees vice hard over. You could be stalling the foil... The boat needs some forward motion driven by the main. Even boats without headsails can heave to, so I would say your jib's forces are too high compared to the main's driving force

Your post just got me thinking about one of the other posts who suggested sheeting the staysail off a snatch block further forward on the high side toe rail... I had initially dismissed it as I think it would have just added more windage up there to blow the bow off... But now Im not so sure... Can I change the sheeting angle on the foresail to actually help pull me higher? God I wish I paid more attention to my one fluid dynamics course at university all those years ago....

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I am more accustomed to tillers but as Americans favour wheels on everything I went for helm.. assuming they'd know it meant into the wind..

I've no problem with you or with steering orders that refer to the helm, as long as we're all on the same page:

* the helm is the part of the tiller that fits in the steersman's (or steerswoman's) hand. The word can be traced back through most all of the Germanic languages to the proto-Germanic or Teutonic language used around 500 BCE (and not written down) *halbam, a handle, a thing you put your hand around to hold; and to about 3700 BCE proto-Indo-European *kelp, to hold, to grasp. So helm is NOT equal to wheel;

and

* for most any sailboat, heaving to is achieved by balancing the headsail against the rudder, meaning helm to leeward which is the same as rudder to weather (perhaps by 20 degrees, depending on your keel, surface area of rudder, and the centre of effort of your sailplan).

Just please let us not return to the pre-1930s era where we (cruising sailors) confuse a helm order and a rudder order.

When in doubt, use a rudder order.

If you're boat is cursed (or blessed) with a wheel, the rudder will turn in the same direction as the wheel.

So rudder to weather means 'turn the wheel towards the wind' or "put the helm down (to leeward).

I can understand the problem for people with a wheel. They say "I'll take a trick at the helm" and think that the wheel might be a "helm". It's not. That's exactly what the 1929 SOLAS conference dealt with successfully.

The graphic zstine attached is correct. Helm to leeward, rudder to weather to heave the boat to the weather.

[robert sailor]

Ive had boats that would only heave to under mainsail alone. That fat furled headsail might be enough drag at the bow to want to push it off. Personally I think your carrying too little sail because 35 knots is not that much wind in the whole scheme of things. You might need a single reefed main as a minimum for that wind. Dont worry about the leech chatter as you can take it out with the leech line being snugged up. Next time you are sailing in 25 knots plus do some experimenting. Normally you want your helm hard to the wind but again experiment as it might work better with a bit less helm. Because its a fin keel you will not get the boat to stop, you will forereach very slowely and thats just fine.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Alan Mighty

I can understand the problem for people with a wheel. They say "I'll take a trick at the helm" and think that the wheel might be a "helm". It's not. That's exactly what the 1929 SOLAS conference dealt with successfully.

Thankfully Alan has us all on the same page now! When I first started sailing, this terminology problem confused me. The tiller versus wheel opposite language used by some was troubling. "helms alee"? oh sure. a quaint old term... helm = tiller. Easy. Push it to the lee side. Boat turns up wind.
"Turn the helm to lee"... but it's a wheel?? Hmmm. Which way??
I remember not asking for clarification, because I assumed there was no WAY modern sailors could have such a problem in terminology as to cause an opposite day. I assumed incorrectly.

Proper "rudder" commands seem common in the military, but "helm" commands are still used among the racers near me, tiller or wheel. Have we not progressed in 90 years? Perhaps the trouble is in Alan's statement:
They say "I'll take a trick at the helm" and think that the wheel might be a "helm". It's not.

Hmm. Not so fast, Alan. Ancient origins aside, go look up the modern definition of "helm" and you will get "tiller or wheel", and "steering apparatus". It seems the language has evolved and thus the problem persists, as "helm" is NO LONGER simply the stick connected to the rudder, in modern English. The only solution seems to be having everyone referring to RUDDER instead of HELM. Now I just need to convince all the misguided old salts at the yacht club...

[Jim Cate]

We have a lot of windage forward (two furled sails) and little depth to the forefoot. The bow blows down easily, and this makes heaving to more difficult. One thing we've done that helps somewhat is to pull the boom well up to windward with the traveler. With three reefs in, we can sorta achieve almost sorta heaving to, but it is really just forereaching very slowly, usually with the AW between 45 and 50 degrees. Not as good as drifting slowly down your own slick, but better than sailing at speed.

The OP might try something like that...

Jim

[JPA Cate]

On our one tonner, with 2 or 3 reefs in the main, and the storm jib, backed, way forward, the helm was up to windward and locked. But remember, it shouldn't be generating lift if you're stopped. You may have to play with the main a bit to find the sweet spot.

Ann

[waterman46]

I totally admire all of you who have been out there in awful conditions and thanks for sharing your experiences.

But the thread got really weird!

Shiver my timbers guys, not to be flippant (is that a word?), but I just can't remember anyone who spent any time in a sailboat ever being confused about what "helms alee" meant. Knowing that one action and it's intended result, which is usually learned on the first day of a landlubbers new sailing life, any command about the helm on a wheel steered boat would seem to be self explanatory.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by waterman46

I totally admire all of you who have been out there in awful conditions and thanks for sharing your experiences.

But the thread got really weird!

Shiver my timbers guys, not to be flippant (is that a word?), but I just can't remember anyone who spent any time in a sailboat ever being confused about what "helms alee" meant. Knowing that one action and it's intended result, which is usually learned on the first day of a landlubbers new sailing life, any command about the helm on a wheel steered boat would seem to be self explanatory.

But is it really self-explanatory? As StuM pointed out, there were two people in this thread describing the same thing with completely opposite phrases:
"Helm is hard to lee."
"Helm is hard to windward."

Say you wish the boat to go up wind (to heave to)...
If describing a tiller, then which way are you pushing it?
If describing a wheel, then which way are you turning it?

Yes, I know the answer, but you have to admit that there is nothing "self-explanatory" about a tiller and a wheel being opposite. The "rudder" commands are the only clear ones I think, no?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by cyan

The only solution seems to be having everyone referring to RUDDER instead of HELM. Now I just need to convince all the misguided old salts at the yacht club...

Yep, "port rudder" or "rudder to windward". are unambiguous. And it is also logical in that it indicates the direction you want the bow to turn too.

It's how I teach it on Keelboat Learn To Sail courses (we use a mixture of tiller and wheel boats for training).

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by cyan

Hmm. Not so fast, Alan. Ancient origins aside, go look up the modern definition of "helm" and you will get "tiller or wheel", and "steering apparatus". It seems the language has evolved and thus the problem persists, as "helm" is NO LONGER simply the stick connected to the rudder, in modern English. The only solution seems to be having everyone referring to RUDDER instead of HELM. Now I just need to convince all the misguided old salts at the yacht club...

I think you're right, cyan. And that would be at the root of that helm to windward/leeward contradiction.

The 1929 SOLAS conference said exactly what you wrote: we should all use RUDDER orders and stop using HELM orders.

I was surprised a year or three ago, after first reading CF, to discover North Americans calling the chainwheel of an anchor windlass a 'gypsy'. Astounding, I thought.

After all, North Americans invented the name 'wildcat' for a chainwheel of an anchor windlass, a device used for catting an anchor.

And then abandoned the term, it seems, in preference for misusing a British term for a small metal capstan, designed only for rope, of the sort hawked around rural towns and villages by Romanys or travellers!

Bizarre, no?

Half the boats I've owned have been steered by tiller. And it's so jolly easy when teaching a grandchild or whatever guest to put the 'helm down' or 'helm up'. So I've been reluctant to accept what I know about that 1929 SOLAS conference.

When not under oars, our dinghy is propelled by a tiller-steered outboard. The grandchildren understand intuitively how it works. And that transfers to their steering of Led Myne by tiller.

Only with landlubber adults do I have to resort to "point the tiller where you don't want to boat to go". First-timers are always surprised when I say that.

Perhaps part of it is the disease of people thinking that what they do driving a motorcar/automobile transfers to a boat. I reckon children who have not driven a car make better sailors than experienced car drivers.

As Boatman61 correctly pointed out, using the rudder slows a boat down and you're better off using your sail balance to turn (or help turn) the boat than the rudder alone (except when under power). The mainsheet (and/or the jibsheet) is a better analogy for an accelerator pedal than most anything else on a sailboat. And, especially when under motor power, a sharp turn or a stern anchor is the closest one gets to using a 'brake' on a boat.

But the other part of the problem is likely, as you say, just the change of the language. And if we want to be understood, we have to use the language ...

I did ASA courses in the US several decades back, partly to gain paper certification to make insurance companies happy. I don't remember any use of 'helm' for a wheel then. What does the US ASA teach these days about a helm? Do they, like StuM, now only use RUDDER orders?

[SteveSadler]

To hove to is fairly simple regardless of size, keel, sails, etc.
You want to hove to for 30 minutes? Sheet everything in hard, throw the helm over to tack. Once tacked, throw it back again hard to windward.
Cook dinner, eat and continue sailing.
For long term and for leeward shores, sheet main in hard, furl headsail off the shrouds, then tack and back again to windward. If still making leeway, reduce headsail size to just enough to prevent a tack.
Thats as close to windward as your boat will hove to.
If you're laying 45 to 60 degrees off the wind you're doing fine. Motion
reduced 75%, as good as it gets. All monos can do this.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

To hove heave to is fairly simple regardless of size, keel, sails, etc.
You want to hove heave to for 30 minutes? Sheet everything in hard, throw the helm over to tack. Once tacked, throw it back again hard to windward.
Cook dinner, eat and continue sailing.
For long term and for leeward shores, sheet main in hard, furl headsail off the shrouds, then tack and back again to windward. If still making leeway, reduce headsail size to just enough to prevent a tack.
Thats as close to windward as your boat will hove heave to.
If you're laying 45 to 60 degrees off the wind you're doing fine. Motion
reduced 75%, as good as it gets. All monos can do this.

Just saying!

[SteveSadler]

Thanks for the grammar correction Stu!