Help Heaving to on my boat

[boom23]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "Here are the free PDF versions of the Dashew books:"

I was being cagey knowing that this stuff is on HolyMotherNet, but having no knowledge of whether that is with Dashew's permission, or whether this stuff has been "pirated".

Given that the copyright on the material can not yet be time-expired, it would be nice to know that getting this stuff off the net does not deprive Dashew of revenue that is rightfully his.

Given that we have just had one lengthy thread about "morality" on a topic that has nothing whatsoever to do with ethics, here is a golden opportunity to have such a discussion about something that has!

Cheers

TP

Not to change the thread topic but the link to Dashew's books is to the FPD website (Dashew's company and website). Also, the website page says:

Dashew Offshore, Beowulf Publishing, and the FPB team have been blessed with the support of the cruising community for many years, and we’d like to return the favor in a small way. We are making Mariner’s Weather Handbook, Surviving the Storm, Practical Seamanship and Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia available for free as PDF files. We hope Mariner’s Weather Handbook helps you avoid the need for Surviving the Storm, and that Offshore Cruising Encyclopedia and Practical Seamanship enhance your tools for successful cruising. If these books help a few of our fellow cruisers have a more enjoyable experience, and perhaps stay out of difficulty, we will have been amply repaid. Simply click on the links below to download these publications.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by gpeacock

Hence why we are here. Ours hove to fine until this passage with seas greater than 4 m and wind less than 35 knots. In this condition we couldn't tack and even once the jib was backed we couldn't get higher than 70 deg.

I was in a similar situation on a 35' mono with 49' mast- fin keel, 7' draft. The swells were closer to around 3m from a prior storm but we barely had 20 knots of breeze, no waves breaking. It felt calm in the troughs. There was simply not enough wind power to tack, after lots of different sail adjustments. We struggled to climb the big swells and the engine was the only remedy. (probably a bit of current) I kept thinking that the swell would eventually die down without the wind but it took a looong time. We never tried to heave to, as the control offered by prop power among these gentle mountains (in the dark) just felt safer. It was rock-paper-scissors to see who would go on the fore-deck and get a jerry can of diesel, though.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Present/past tense: I am/was hove to.

Just a slight correction.

Your examples are of the past/present tense of "to be", combined with the past participle of "to heave to".

I am hove to. (present tense of "to be", past participle of "to heave to")
I was hove to (past tense of "to be", past participle of "to heave to")

Compare to the same two tenses of "to be" using the present participle:
I am heaving to.
I was heaving to.

(and then there's the gerund form: "they watched my heaving to" )

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by StuM

Just a slight correction.

Your examples are of the past/present tense of "to be", combined with the past participle of "to heave to".

I am hove to. (present tense of "to be", past participle of "to heave to")
I was hove to (past tense of "to be", past participle of "to heave to")

Compare to the same two tenses of "to be" using the present participle:
I am heaving to.
I was heaving to.

(and then there's the gerund form: "they watched my heaving to" )

How about the possessive, "I am the heave to'er".

Or the famous quote, "Whether to heave to or not to heave to, that is the question".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by shane.h012

Is heaving too that dangerous? I never been out in very bad weather yet, but have read some of the passages on the fastnet race when the boats faired the best and out of all the boats the ones that came back alive was the boats that hove to, on that terrible night back in the late 90s, please quote me if I’m wrong...

No, I didn't mean to imply that it is inherently dangerous. It's a great tactic in certain sea states, and it's particularly valuable if the crew is getting exhausted, because it slows everything down and lets you rest with no need for anyone to steer.

Without a sea anchor, I would be afraid, in my boat, to be hove-to when there are breaking seas. Seas of a certain steepness will knock my head down. It comes back, but two breakers in a row could be bad. Other boats may be different. Full keel boats, for example, are much more stable when hove to than my boat, a bulb-keeler.

It's all relative -- if the choice is between being hove-to and lying ahull, there's no comparison at all. Lying ahull is almost a guaranty to get rolled above a certain sea state. Being hove-to is far safer and more stable.


But the real experts on this are the Pardeys, not me. Their Storm Tactics is a whole book on heaving-to as a storm tactic. I highly recommend it. Read what they say about sea anchors -- I don't remember exactly.

[TrentePieds]

@ Boom23, #61

Thank you. That clears the uncertainty :-)!

TP

[JPA Cate]

@ gpeacock,

If the main issue here is finding a way where the motion changes enough for you and your partners's seasickness to go away, then you might try the very slow reach that Jim suggested...he beat me to it today! pinching way up slows you way down, so the lurching gets minimized, but the boat maintains a pretty steady heel angle, and that may be all you need for your bodies to calm themselves. Stugeron, cinnarizine HCL, really works well for us.

Ann

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by cyan

But is it really self-explanatory? As StuM pointed out, there were two people in this thread describing the same thing with completely opposite phrases:
"Helm is hard to lee."
"Helm is hard to windward."

Say you wish the boat to go up wind (to heave to)...
If describing a tiller, then which way are you pushing it?
If describing a wheel, then which way are you turning it?

Yes, I know the answer, but you have to admit that there is nothing "self-explanatory" about a tiller and a wheel being opposite. The "rudder" commands are the only clear ones I think, no?

Right, after I posted I thought more, and then realized the only really clear commands or descriptions are the rudder positions. But I'm not sure of the correct terminology. It is clear for power boats and ships, where either Port or Starboard is used to describe rudder angle, usually like "port 10 degrees rudder". But for a sailboat, what is the right terms for rudder when you need to refer to the wind direction? Something like "rudder to weather 20 degrees" would seem to work for me. In that case both rudder and the boat will be turning into the wind.

[Don C L]

My boat heaves-to fine, but I definitely don't have a high aspect rig. I wonder if anyone with a high aspect rig has experience with a try-sail rather than a reefed main for keeping the bow up higher? A triple reefed high aspect main just doesn't have much cloth aft to rudder the bow up.

[Jim Cate]

On this kinda silly "how to tell the steersman where to go" argument,on our boat we will say "go right x degrees" or "come up x degrees" and so on. On our boat, and I bet on most other cruising boats, the person steering already knows damn well which way to turn the wheel or push the tiller to make the maneuver, and approximately how much movement will be required. We're sailors after all...

Jim

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

On this kinda silly "how to tell the steersman where to go" argument,on our boat we will say "go right x degrees" or "come up x degrees" and so on. On our boat, and I bet on most other cruising boats, the person steering already knows damn well which way to turn the wheel or push the tiller to make the maneuver, and approximately how much movement will be required. We're sailors after all...

Jim

Yes, common sense imagine that. The speed humps we trip over here is amazing at times... Grrrrrrrr.

[Scout 30]

Understanding & using the correct terminology on a boat is not silly. In an emergency it becomes very important. When sailing with the same mate all of the time it's easy to become complacent but when someone else joins you or you're sailing on someone else's boat they may not know what you mean or you may not understand their instructions. Worst case this can result in an injury.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Understanding & using the correct terminology on a boat is not silly. In an emergency it becomes very important. When sailing with the same mate all of the time it's easy to become complacent but when someone else joins you or you're sailing on someone else's boat they may not know what you mean or you may not understand their instructions. Worst case this can result in an injury.

I agree, but I don't think nautical terminology helps us much in this particular case, since in this particular case it is itself dangerously confusing.

I say "lash the helm alee" just because I learned it by memory from childhood "back the jib and lash the helm alee". For me it's just a set phrase. I would NEVER tell the helmsman to put the helm alee -- which way is that? It's actually opposite because it is derived from using a tiller. A modern wheel (old fashioned wheels worked backward IIRC) would be turned on the contrary to windward.

So I'm like Jim -- keep it simple -- "head up"; "head off" -- that's very clear. Or "right rudder" or "left rudder". I don't actually know why I don't say port and starboard in this case; I'm usually a stickler for correct nautical terminology, but anyway, that's what I say, trying to eliminate any chance of misunderstanding.

[TrentePieds]

Re: #68 and #70

Jim is absolutely right, of course. It really isn't a matter that requires more than ten minutes even for the most lubberly person to learn - tiller or wheel. When under sail it is very rarely necessary to give a helming order except the one that is implicit in the order to come about or to wear. The entire rigamarole of either maneuvre, including the timing of the constituent parts of the entire evolution, should be perceived by the crew as one entity, and will so be if the crew has been properly drilled. Then the whole schmeer reduces to the 'preparatory' "Stand by to tack!" or "Stand by to wear!" followed by the 'execute' "Helm alee!" or 'Helm up!" It is not important that helmsman understands what the words mean, let alone their etymology. It is only important that he knows what to do when he hears them. And that he does it. That's where drill comes in. It is skipper's responsibility, if he gives the helm to a greenhorn, to instruct that greenhorn appropriately and to run him through the drill. Drill is what precludes confusion and prevents accidents.

In TP the corrections that are necessitated by slight shift in the wind are "Come up!" and "Fall off". Just to keep the ambience nautical, when skipper is satisfied with the wind course, but the helmsman hasn't clued in that he has turned far enuff, the order to hold course is "Just so!" How difficult is any of that?

Under power, the helmsman in TP will be steering to a landmark because if you want me to go out of sight of land, you will have to pay me very handsomely indeed! A course correction is ordered e.g "Come to two, four, zero!". The helmsman does that by compass and as it swings through 240º, he picks a landmark to steer for. Then steers for that without reference to the compass. Again, simplicity itself. And again it is important that the helmsman understands WHAT TO DO on hearing a particular word. It is of no importance that he should understand the conventional meaning of the word. It was observance of those principles that made it possible to sail the huge complex windbags of yore with polyglot crews.

And before anybody puts on his filological combat boots: I'm perfectly aware of the "misuse" of the word "tack" in the above. If I were more of a pedant, I would, of course, use "Come about!" instead of "tack". But in the context, "tack" is nice and crisp, and that is precisely what is wanted :-)

Cheers

TP

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Re: #68 and #70

Jim is absolutely right, of course. It really isn't a matter that requires more than ten minutes even for the most lubberly person to learn - tiller or wheel. When under sail it is very rarely necessary to give a helming order except the one that is implicit in the order to come about or to wear. The entire rigamarole of either maneuvre, including the timing of the constituent parts of the entire evolution, should be perceived by the crew as one entity, and will so be if the crew has been properly drilled. Then the whole schmeer reduces to the 'preparatory' "Stand by to tack!" or "Stand by to wear!" followed by the 'execute' "Helm alee!" or 'Helm up!" It is not important that helmsman understands what the words mean, let alone their etymology. It is only important that he knows what to do when he hears them. And that he does it. That's where drill comes in. It is skipper's responsibility, if he gives the helm to a greenhorn, to instruct that greenhorn appropriately and to run him through the drill. Drill is what precludes confusion and prevents accidents.

In TP the corrections that are necessitated by slight shift in the wind are "Come up!" and "Fall off". Just to keep the ambience nautical, when skipper is satisfied with the wind course, but the helmsman hasn't clued in that he has turned far enuff, the order to hold course is "Just so!" How difficult is any of that?

Under power, the helmsman in TP will be steering to a landmark because if you want me to go out of sight of land, you will have to pay me very handsomely indeed! A course correction is ordered e.g "Come to two, four, zero!". The helmsman does that by compass and as it swings through 240º, he picks a landmark to steer for. Then steers for that without reference to the compass. Again, simplicity itself. And again it is important that the helmsman understands WHAT TO DO on hearing a particular word. It is of no importance that he should understand the conventional meaning of the word. It was observance of those principles that made it possible to sail the huge complex windbags of yore with polyglot crews.

And before anybody puts on his filological combat boots: I'm perfectly aware of the "misuse" of the word "tack" in the above. If I were more of a pedant, I would, of course, use "Come about!" instead of "tack". But in the context, "tack" is nice and crisp, and that is precisely what is wanted :-)

Cheers

TP

Question about terminology -- where did you get the term "wear" or "wear ship"?

I never heard this in a lifetime of sailing and reading about sailing, and only encountered this term in Patrick O'Brien, and remember very well having to look it up.

Do you really use it on your boat?


On tacking: On my boat, we say "Ready about?" "Ready!" "Prepare to come about!" "Helm hard alee!" "Blow the sheet -- now!" "Haul away, go go go!" But tacking is so easy on my boat (staysail is self-tacking; boat flies through the wind; electric winches) that it's hardly necessary to say anything other than "Shall we tack now? OK, here we go!". But I like the ritual.