Help Heaving to on my boat

[gpeacock]

Ok... I knew the theory, had practised it in winds to 20 knots but when I really needed it I couldn't get my boat to Heave to.

We just sailed from Easter Island to Valdivia. En route we encountered 4 gales and 1 storm. It was kind of a sucky passage. In the interest of making the next passage better we really need to sort out how to get our boat to Heave to. Yes I know there are other options but when there are only two seasick prone sailors aboard this needs to be a tool that works for us.

We have an Oyster 435 with a baby stay, hank on forestay and furling headstay. The underbody is a skeg hung rudder with a mid size keel.

During the 4 gales with seas up to 4 meters we tried the following combinations:
Backed/Unbacked Storm Jib/2 reef main,
Backed/Unbacked Storm Jib/3 reef main,
2 reef main alone
3 reef main alone.
We also tried storm jib alone.

In the various sail configurations none would "Heave us to". Most would set us up to forereach with the best apparent angle being 70 deg to the wind and the worst around 100. Waves and wind were almost aligned so anything close to beam was pretty exciting. We moved the traveller on the main and played with various main sheet positions. Towing a warp would slow us down but set us up at beam or below. I assumed the drogue (galerider) would make things worse.

In the storm we saw 5 -5.5 m seas but only 35 knots because we were on the top end of it. Again we could only set up to forereach at about 3 knots. I spent a few hours watching the slick and our aft quarter was protected (good for the rudder and the Hydrovane) but we filled our center cockpit up 3 times above the seats (thanks Oyster for making it drain fast) and the forward deck took a beating. Running with it wasn't an option due to a bigger storm on it's back. As it was ,due to the 6 hours forereaching, we barely got back down and into port before the coast saw 60 knots and 9 m seas.

Sorry for the long set up, here is the questions:
In all cases we did not have enough power to get a tack through the waves and were forced to jibe to get the jib backed. Skip Novacs video I think shows him cranking the storm jib to the high side to back it instead of tacking... We tried that but the baby stay jammed things up. Jibing meant dealing with timing the big seas, moving the main preventer to the other side and setting up the other running back. Easy to do when there is more than 3 people on board... 2 and it gets really hard.

How do we get the boat to point higher? If I remember my basic sailing I think I need to get more sail aft but with a double reefed main and nothing flying forward I still couldn't do better than 70-80 degrees apparent. Should I be going to the first reef alone in 35 knots? We have a trisail... Should we have flown that? The only other thing we didnt try was running the storm sail without a head pendant which would have got it about 3-4 feet higher off the deck.

Who has actually gotten a similar boat to sit in their slick with sails alone? Im sure we'll have at least a few gales to try theories while we are sailing down here.
Thanks so much
Gary

[StuM]

You haven't mentioned your rudder position?

[El Pinguino]

How far back from the stemhead is the inner forestay tacked ... Just behind the windlass (like mine) or half way back to the mast?

If its like mine the sailplan - even with a triple reefed main - is out of kilter unless I use the #3 storm jib ( 50 sq foot ) and even then it is a struggle to get her hove to....

[Dockhead]

You may need a sea anchor to keep your head from being knocked down in that kind of sea state. It's been a while since I read the Pardeys on this, but from memory they always used a sea anchor above a certain sea state.

In any case, the time to practice and perfect heaving to technique is not in such conditions. You should experiment in calmer weather. Every boat is different. Experiment with different combinations of sails, reef points, traveler position. Make sure the helm is hard alee. My boat will heave to with a staysail and deeply reefed main but if the sea is up, it can be difficult to get the head through the wind. I would use the motor and in no event would I attempt to gybe into a hove-to position.

For whatever it may be worth, though, I don't heave to at all in that kind of weather. I don't like the prospect of having the bow knocked around by a breaking wave and turning me beam on to the next wave. So I run off with just a bit of jib out to stabilize the boat. Jib, not staysail, to get the center of effort as far forward as possible. I am ok without a drogue or trailing anything up to F9. Your boat is much heavier so should be even better.


Another thing -- I would avoid at all costs messing around on the foredeck in such weather. One breaking wave over the deck and you could be gone, tether or no tether. I'm sure you know this, but worth underlining. And worth taking into consideration in your choice of tactics.

[Yellowjacket]

I admire you.

[Boston Blackie]

Our J42 has a spade rudder, bulb fin keel, and inner forestay on the anchor locker bulkhead. We had to heave to briefly last summer while beating down the Nova Scotia Eastern Shore with 35 k wind and 3m seas under double reef main and full genoa staysail. I tacked to back the staysail and the boat became rock stable at about 50 deg apparent. So much so that she would neither come up or bear away to jibe until I released the staysail sheet.

[foojin]

Your vessel should be simple to heave to, though that's an easy thing to say never having had to make it so.

Have to echo StuM's query about rudder angle. Did you experiment with that?

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by gpeacock

...In all cases we did not have enough power to get a tack through the waves and were forced to jibe to get the jib backed. ...

Just picking up on the question raised above. There’s nothing wrong with firing up the motor to get the extra power needed to achieve a tack with significantly reduced sail. Whilst undertaking a gybe to change to the other tack (ie. wear ship) works, as you state, that’s a fairly serious operation to achieve in a storm and hard on the gear. (Oh and this is easy to write as I sit here in my very comfortable home.)

[roland stockham]

Problem could be that the keel and/or rudder is stalling. Small/medium keel area works when moving but does not have a lot of area so resistance is low at slow speed. Although the ideal is to fore-reach or make leeway at 2kn or less you boat may behave better if you allow 3/4kn, effectively jogging to windward rather that hove to. I have used this very effectively in prolonged heavy weather, aim for about 60deg off the wind. It also make it less likely that the bow will be knocked/blown off and the rudder will bring you back up more quickly.
Trysail may be more effective if it has more sail are aft. A problem with some sloops is that when you reef it brings the center of effort for the main forward so it is no longer pushing the bow up to wind. I think this is likely what your problem is.
Another issue can be bow windage. A furled sail on the bow can produce significant drag. How easy would it be to remove the sail when preping for a blow?
Lastly you could increase stern windage. Not common now but there used to be a sail called a riding sail that was hanked to the backstay and sheeted forward (hard!!). Effectively a storm jib flown in reverse. It is sheeted to one side to control the angle to the wind. Can be set on the stay beforehand for quick deployment. Traditionally it was hoisted on the topping lift which works well but assumes you have a boom crutch or gallows to support the boom.
Hopefully one of those helps.

[Hoofsmit]

Take what you feel happy to from this, I am no pardey or Novacs
Both I think sail fairly longish keel sailable Seaworthy craft !

I have know figured that fore reaching with a fin bulb keel, spade rudder design is a normal and expected heave to feature.
( I was told by a wiseman....the best way to learn is to try and teach it !)

So .... my take on this art is !

You should be able to get it fairly stable at under 2 knots, but you will all ways round up and bear off as the sea takes your bow.

Asking for abeam is the quest of the long Keeler

I find that 30 degs Is about your optimum and have yet to get a beam attitude for more than a few swells, as she will whizz off surfing!

I think El Piguino is correct about using the world " kilter"

So how ?

Balance !

So ...... my plan is

Main turns you up
Fore sail takes you down
Helm counteracts fore sail

The true answer is to trim close hauled to a point where no helm is needed ...... that sail plan will then be balanced in heave too.

So

Before trying - get the speed down to under 2 knots .... in irons ... whatever !

Helm fully over

Back the fore sail

if she still points up - ease the main - ( scandalising with vang eased often work better than main sheet ) if still pointing up try easing the foresail to ' bag it ' a little

If she try's to run down ( with the helm fully over) power up the main
Flatten or reduce foresail

This is my experience in 4 Bavarias, 3 jeaneau's , 2 Dufours and 1 Bendy !

But I maybe wrong .... as often is the case

P

[JPA Cate]

Hello, gpeacock,

Yes, it's hard to get fin keel boats to stay stopped, hove to. We've not been able to do it with our present boat, but what helped with our previous one was to sheet the storm jib way forward, so that it could be truly backed. If we left it sheeted to it's normal location, it just thought it was sheeted poorly on the other tack, and took off. You may benefit from figuring out a way to install a pad eye and backing plate, and have a snatch block for them, that you could use for the purpose of heaving to.

That boat was an old IOR one tonner, and had perforated toe rails, so, for us, it was easy to trial and error the position. It was forward of the forward end of the existing track, and all the way outboard. Even then, it was not stopped totally, she'd make a little way. However, the motion was more endurable.

As to the sea sickness, Jim and I use Stugeron, and it really works for us, with only minor side effects: I sometimes am a little drowsy for about 1/2 hr., and Jim finds he needs to urinate more frequently. You might consider trying some, for us, it has definitely been worth the effort.

Ann

[zstine]

If the boat is not pointing near enough to the wind as the OP indicates, the solution is to sheet the main in farther to provide more forward power as the bow falls off. Typically, the helm should be hard to windward and locked there. I can't imagine how you could be 100 deg off the wind and not have forward movement through the water regardless of where the sails are. So if the helm was hard to windward, how could he possibly be stable at 100 deg off the wind?

[captmikem]

I used to sail an 80 ft Frerrs that had a fin keel and a semi spade rudder. I used to heave to fairly often with it, in fact twice coming from Easter island to Pitcarin. I always hove to with a backed staysail and triple reefed main, and helm hard to leeward, it was never a problem. often I would jibe over instead of tacking to back the jib, with a triple reefed main sheeted in tight that was not a problem as she would accelerate downwind like crazy. sometimes easing the main a bit was reqired.to keep her from poking up to high with a stronger breeze.

I agree, Stergon is great for seasickness.

M

[Cheechako]

I have not found a boat that will heave to in heavy water. A lot of people think because they went out and practised in 20 knots of wind and a chop that they can. The ocean is stronger than the wind is the problem, when a wave slaps your boat, it heads down and wallows.
Even the Pardey's with their very traditional boat tried to solve the problem and wrote a book on how one might be able to heave to using a sea anchor and block and tackle as their sails alone would not do it.

[StuM]

Two consecutive posts above:

> Typically, the helm should be hard to windward

and then

> and helm hard to leeward

which is why I raised the still unanswered question of the OPs rudder position