Help me flesh out my ground tackle

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . .
And in those cases you don't need a snubber but it is still good to take all load off the capstan.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but just because you've put on a snubber, does not mean that you've taken load off the windlass.

In order for the snubber to do its job as a snubber, it will be much weaker than the rode. So being much weaker than the rode, it will do a poor job of taking load of the windlass (that is, belaying the chain).

[s/v Jedi]

If you have a budget that limits choices then I would suggest to put it all on the primary anchor because often there is no second chance when the primary fails.

On snubbers: I have tested snubbers for years; you should as well. We are 64' long and displace 25 metric tons. A 1/2" nylon 3-strand 20' long snubber exploded in a violent squall and I switched to 5/8" which hasn't failed ever and that includes 60-knot squalls.

You need a stretchy snubber, not a stretchy rode. Chain rules and next is polyester octoplaid. If you have chain, then a chain stopper is another insurance policy. It saved us in a cat4-5 hurricane.

[stillbuilding]

I am very much in favour of a two sizes larger than recommended for main bower. Then another as large or larger reserve anchor - call it a storm or spare, whatever.

But also need a light kedge for laying out using the dingy. Have been aground in a river and needed to have an anchor out to hold us fro being swept further onto the sandbar with the strong flood tide and a main bower just would not do. Probably any Danforth style would be fine for this.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forums lily hhrn

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by stillbuilding

I am very much in favour of a two sizes larger than recommended for main bower. Then another as large or larger reserve anchor - call it a storm or spare, whatever.

But also need a light kedge for laying out using the dingy. Have been aground in a river and needed to have an anchor out to hold us fro being swept further onto the sandbar with the strong flood tide and a main bower just would not do. Probably any Danforth style would be fine for this.


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forums lily hhrn

Presumptively any of these anchors is going to be on a powered windless so why keep the largest anchor as a spare? Just use your 'storm' anchor as the primary all the time. its not like they wear out with overuse.

Then you need a real backup, which really should be a large Fortress (because they can be disassembled and stored easily. This also needs to be large enough to hold the boat in real storm conditions, just in case you lost the primary to something unexpected.

Finally a kedge to pull you off a sand bank, or keep the storm from swinging in some anchorages. My advice is to also use this as the primary dingy anchor since that's how it will be deployed anyway. On a big boat the required kedge may really be too large for the dingy so you wind up carrying the third anchor as stores anyway. But if possible I would prefer not.


Just as an example Windhorse (Dashew FPB 83) carries just three anchors.
1) 240lb Ronca
2) Fortress F125
3) Fortress F80

[s/v Jedi]

Windhorse has the same anchor arrangement as we have because in all those years Dashew never found a better combination. Yes, he switched from Bruce to Rocna and increased the size a bit more, but the two Fortress anchors are the exact same.

p.s. we can easily dinghy our 176lb Bruce out with our RIB. Just lower the anchor to just submerged, which takes a chunk of weight off (40% iirc) then tie the chain of with a small diameter lanyard over the bow of the dinghy to a padeye used for hoisting. Now you can reverse away from the boat while the anchorchain is let out. Once over the intended spot, you can either cut the lanyard or yank it loose if using a slipknot and down the anchor goes. It is easier than the big Fortress anchors that try to cut and stab you.

About the line to the palm tree on the beach: it invites drunkards and fools to take it off again at night. We use a Fortress set in knee-deep water instead.

[newtonsailor]

Originally Posted by ScottMeilicke

Our broker thought the Rocna 33 wouldn't fit on our bow. When I saw it there, I wished I had bought the 40. I am keeping my eyes peeled for a possible trade in the future.

I have thought about a spade or mantus in place of the bruce. The bruce is currently at the mast, but it would be nice to have another bower anchor that I can disassemble and keep below.

Regarding two anchors at the bow, no I just want one. I'd like to avoid too much weight at the bow. I will have a stern anchor ready to drop at a moments notice. If we are in something stinky, I will prepare a backup anchor for the bow, ready to deploy if needed.

Fatty is our hero. I've read his anchoring book twice. I just get twisted around the axel on this stuff at times, and needed all of you to break me free.

One of Fatty's last stories talked about his anchoring in deep water. He has a boat similar to yours and he seemed very pleased with his Rocna, which was a 25, so you are already one size larger than he is using for his very similar boat as the primary. I am not sure you need to go bigger than the 33.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but just because you've put on a snubber, does not mean that you've taken load off the windlass.

In order for the snubber to do its job as a snubber, it will be much weaker than the rode. So being much weaker than the rode, it will do a poor job of taking load of the windlass (that is, belaying the chain).

OK I'll try that again.. ' the snubber will take the load off the windlass until such time as the snubber carries away at which time the load will once again be on the windlass'.

I've never had a snubber carry away... thats what comes of leading a sheltered life I guess.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by newtonsailor

One of Fatty's last stories talked about his anchoring in deep water. He has a boat similar to yours and he seemed very pleased with his Rocna, which was a 25, so you are already one size larger than he is using for his very similar boat as the primary. I am not sure you need to go bigger than the 33.

Id agree. The rocna sizing is already a couple of sizes up on most comparable anchor sizing charts.

A Good basic check is loaxloa÷anchor wt should be around 25 using ft and lbs. This simple check seems to work when comparing differnt boat sizes. Obviously you still need to allow for better or worse anchors and high vs low windage boats, but its a very good starting point.

Eg windhorses 83x83÷240=28.7, not so big after all, but she is narrow and doesnt have a mast, so still conservative.

And jedis 64x64÷176= 23. Much better, but its a low holding power bruce so needs lower number to compare.

So you at 43x43÷72=25.7 are looking pretty comparable to the big is better dashew concept already. No need to fo bigger.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

OK I'll try that again.. ' the snubber will take the load off the windlass until such time as the snubber carries away at which time the load will once again be on the windlass'.

I've never had a snubber carry away... thats what comes of leading a sheltered life I guess.

Well, look . . .

* The snubber is made to stretch and absorb shock, right?

* Therefore it can't possibly be as strong as the rest of the rode, else it wouldn't be stretchy enough.

* The snubber is nylon, which as we know breaks down after repeated cycling.

* The snubber is absorbing all the shock for the whole rode.

THEREFORE, the snubber is a serious weak point in the system, if it's used like this. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

In fact, the snubber is a break waiting to happen, something we accept in order to get the required stretch. You've never broken one?? I've broken at least three or four, and that's despite changing them every two years.

If it breaks in strong weather and you haven't belayed your chain, your ground tackle will run out and be gone before you can even get up on deck. That could put you on the bricks depending on where you're lying.


Now considering all of this, don't you think it would be reasonable to belay your chain in a manner as strong as the rest of the rode? And leave the snubber to do what it's intended for, without asking it to do something which it's not suited for?

[s/v Jedi]

David, what diameter is your snubber? Have you tried polyester?

[jtsailjt]

I found the recent Practical Sailor article to be pretty informative and their conclusions make good sense to me. They recommend a longer snubber than I've been using and made up of a thicker diameter rope. But in "normal," fairly placid anchoring conditions, I've found that my skinny, 25' piece of 1/2" 3 strand nylon with chafe gear and using a rolling hitch works pretty well. Since I rarely anchor in really windy conditions, it rarely has to absorb much shock but it does a good job of taking any strain off my windlass and keeping things quiet up there so I can sleep well at night. But before this season begins I intend to acquire a much longer and thicker piece of nylon (also with chafe gear) to have on hand for when it blows hard and I really need a snubber to absorb shock. For anyone who hasn't read that PS article yet, I'd recommend it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I found the recent Practical Sailor article to be pretty informative and their conclusions make good sense to me. They recommend a longer snubber than I've been using and made up of a thicker diameter rope. But in "normal," fairly placid anchoring conditions, I've found that my skinny, 25' piece of 1/2" 3 strand nylon with chafe gear and using a rolling hitch works pretty well. Since I rarely anchor in really windy conditions, it rarely has to absorb much shock but it does a good job of taking any strain off my windlass and keeping things quiet up there so I can sleep well at night. But before this season begins I intend to acquire a much longer and thicker piece of nylon (also with chafe gear) to have on hand for when it blows hard and I really need a snubber to absorb shock. For anyone who hasn't read that PS article yet, I'd recommend it.

25' is a pretty decent snubber. If sized right that will give you plenty of stretch.

If you can make it longer, you can use thicker rope which will be stronger and less likely to break.

Note Noelex's clever trick, mentioned in several threads -- he leads the snubber all the way back to an aft cleat. That gives you a boatlength of extra stretching length, without putting the snubber on the bottom.

And as has been mentioned a few times, don't rely on the snubber for "taking strain off the windlass". That's not a job it's made for. Since the windlass will not hold the chain, it means you would be entirely dependent on the snubber to keep your boat connected to the ground tackle. If it breaks (and snubbers do break), you lose your ground tackle and might go onto the rocks. Use a chain lock or stout strop, as strong as the rest of the rode, or you will create a weak point in your ground tackle. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

/pedanticbrokenrecordmode

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

25' is a pretty decent snubber. If sized right that will give you plenty of stretch.

If you can make it longer, you can use thicker rope which will be stronger and less likely to break.

Note Noelex's clever trick, mentioned in several threads -- he leads the snubber all the way back to an aft cleat. That gives you a boatlength of extra stretching length, without putting the snubber on the bottom.

And as has been mentioned a few times, don't rely on the snubber for "taking strain off the windlass". That's not a job it's made for. Since the windlass will not hold the chain, it means you would be entirely dependent on the snubber to keep your boat connected to the ground tackle. If it breaks (and snubbers do break), you lose your ground tackle and might go onto the rocks. Use a chain lock or stout strop, as strong as the rest of the rode, or you will create a weak point in your ground tackle. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

/pedanticbrokenrecordmode

Yeah, that's why I want to get a thicker snubber, so it can be longer and stronger and still have enough elasticity to absorb shock loads.

I understand what Noelex's arrangement does for him but don't like it for myself. The problem I see is that if your snubber is cleated off within a couple of feet from the last place it touches the boat (hawse hole or bow roller or chock), and the nylon snubber stretches say 10% as the boat moves, the area that needs guarding against chafe is only 10% of that couple of feet (a few inches), but if the snubber is tied another 40' aft, then you will have a 4' long area of snubber rubbing back and forth against the last place it touches your boat, that's a lot of chafing. If the wind is almost calm, you don't need a snubber long enough to drag on bottom and if it is blowing hard, even a 50' snubber will not be on bottom, so by varying the length snubber you use for the prevailing conditions, you can have adequate strength/stretch without worrying about your snubber fouling on the bottom.

In my normal anchoring conditions here in Maine, where the wind dies almost every night, my little snubber does a fine job of isolating my windlass from any strain. Of course in more severe conditions where there's a real chance my snubber could break, there needs to be something much more robust. I don't care for chain brakes and there's not a convenient place to locate one on my boat anyway so I have a piece of stainless wire rope led through hose with eyes and shackles in each end. But it's very rarely used. For backup just in case my snubber slips or breaks during "normal" moderate conditions, I just snap shackle the short, permanently attached piece of wire rope that holds my anchor in place against the bow roller while underway. It's already in place and easy to use and can be detached easily when it's time to depart.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yeah, that's why I want to get a thicker snubber, so it can be longer and stronger and still have enough elasticity to absorb shock loads.

I understand what Noelex's arrangement does for him but don't like it for myself. The problem I see is that if your snubber is cleated off within a couple of feet from the last place it touches the boat (hawse hole or bow roller or chock), and the nylon snubber stretches say 10% as the boat moves, the area that needs guarding against chafe is only 10% of that couple of feet (a few inches), but if the snubber is tied another 40' aft, then you will have a 4' long area of snubber rubbing back and forth against the last place it touches your boat, that's a lot of chafing. If the wind is almost calm, you don't need a snubber long enough to drag on bottom and if it is blowing hard, even a 50' snubber will not be on bottom, so by varying the length snubber you use for the prevailing conditions, you can have adequate strength/stretch without worrying about your snubber fouling on the bottom.

In my normal anchoring conditions here in Maine, where the wind dies almost every night, my little snubber does a fine job of isolating my windlass from any strain. Of course in more severe conditions where there's a real chance my snubber could break, there needs to be something much more robust. I don't care for chain brakes and there's not a convenient place to locate one on my boat anyway so I have a piece of stainless wire rope led through hose with eyes and shackles in each end. But it's very rarely used. For backup just in case my snubber slips or breaks during "normal" moderate conditions, I just snap shackle the short, permanently attached piece of wire rope that holds my anchor in place against the bow roller while underway. It's already in place and easy to use and can be detached easily when it's time to depart.

Why not secure a pillow block to your fore cleat for the snubber? Eliminate the chafe. Better yet secure the block with a elastic connection with a keeper rope, should it fail.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Yeah, that's why I want to get a thicker snubber, so it can be longer and stronger and still have enough elasticity to absorb shock loads.

I understand what Noelex's arrangement does for him but don't like it for myself. The problem I see is that if your snubber is cleated off within a couple of feet from the last place it touches the boat (hawse hole or bow roller or chock), and the nylon snubber stretches say 10% as the boat moves, the area that needs guarding against chafe is only 10% of that couple of feet (a few inches), but if the snubber is tied another 40' aft, then you will have a 4' long area of snubber rubbing back and forth against the last place it touches your boat, that's a lot of chafing. If the wind is almost calm, you don't need a snubber long enough to drag on bottom and if it is blowing hard, even a 50' snubber will not be on bottom, so by varying the length snubber you use for the prevailing conditions, you can have adequate strength/stretch without worrying about your snubber fouling on the bottom.

In my normal anchoring conditions here in Maine, where the wind dies almost every night, my little snubber does a fine job of isolating my windlass from any strain. Of course in more severe conditions where there's a real chance my snubber could break, there needs to be something much more robust. I don't care for chain brakes and there's not a convenient place to locate one on my boat anyway so I have a piece of stainless wire rope led through hose with eyes and shackles in each end. But it's very rarely used. For backup just in case my snubber slips or breaks during "normal" moderate conditions, I just snap shackle the short, permanently attached piece of wire rope that holds my anchor in place against the bow roller while underway. It's already in place and easy to use and can be detached easily when it's time to depart.

Yes, but if your snubber breaks at night, you're screwed. Your ground tackle will be gone before you can get up on deck.

Your whole anchoring system is only as strong as your snubber, the way you're doing it. You're not "isolating the windlass from shock" -- you're connecting the rode to your boat. With only one little rope which is far weaker than the chain. You might as well downsize the chain two sizes and use rubber bands instead of a shackle -- the same result as relying on a snubber to connect the rode to your boat.

Since you've already got a good way to tie down that chain, my recommendation would be to use it, always. Only then is there any point to the chain, shackle, etc. being as strong as it is.

Snubbers are made to stretch and flex, and chafe is inevitable. You can never quite predict when they're going to break. They're just not good for this purpose -- don't make them do two different completely incompatible tasks.