Let's talk self-tending staysails and booms

[Dockhead]

My boat has a furling, self-tacking staysail on an eliptical track so no boom.

It works very well and is super easy to use in any weather. It's designed to double as a storm jib and is very good for that. To fulfill that purpose, the staysail is made of extra-heavy cloth, and is on a jumbo furler (Selden Furlex S400, same as the jib).

Only drawback of this particular self-tacking system is poor control of shape, and I do use barber haulers fairly often to fix the shape (which rather defeats the purpose of self-tacking, doesn't it). Well one other drawback is you have to go forward to belay the car if you want to heave-to with the staysail.

Some people with this type of sail use clew boards with different sheet attachment points, which can be used to fix the shape. I considered having that done last time I changed the UV strip on the sail but then balked at the cost and didn't do it as the sail is old and it didn't seem worth making that kind of investment.

I think altogether it's worthwhile having the staysail self-tacking -- it would be a lot of work to synchronously tack both the jib and staysail. Also when you're using the staysail as a storm jib, it is very very good to have the reduced work load.

A boom is supposed to give much better shape, especially off the wind, but I can't testify to this since I've never used one. Would seem to significantly clutter the foredeck, however.

[NedX]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i am looking at purchasing a boat that has a "Camber Spar spar but missing the sail". Is this the same thing as a staysail on a boom? Does anybody know the specifics of it? The owner is not very forthcoming with information, hence the question.
thanks
jon

edit: the boat in question is the one in my avatar...

Jon, a jib boom and a camber spar are two different things that address the same problem: maintaining leech as you ease off a self-tacking jib to make for a more efficient off-the-wind sail.

The jib boom more or less looks and works like your mainsail boom.

The camber spar fits inside the sail. I was looking at Freedoms a while back; they have them. You can see one in action in the first picture here.

If you read back on this thread you'll see that among the complaints about a jib boom are that it takes up space and adds another potential danger posed by an unintentional jibe. Having a self-tending jib with a camber spar would address those problems, but I have no experience using it and don't know the downsides.

Setting aside any concerns about buying a boat from someone who is being unforthcoming about anything, in this case, the spar without the sail seems kind of like the suspenders without the pants. (Someone will have a better analogy I am sure.)

[Greg K]

Previous boat was a cutter with a self tending staysail. Current boat is a cutter with a staysail with sheets P/S running through blocks on cabin top tracks. Both setups have their charm and drawbacks. ideally, the best possible situation of all is to have both.... a self tending boom for coastal cruising as well as tracks with blocks when off shore so that the staysail can be easily backwinded to heave to. Have never had an issue with the boom flying around at head height while going off the wind primarily because, as other posters have noted, with wind anywhere aft of the beam, the staysail is usually dropped regardless whether it is on a boom or not( unless running downwind wing on wing, as one poster noted).

As far as rigs go, whether with self tending staysail or sheeted, once you sail a cutter you'll never go back to another. The only thing better is a cutter ketch.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

In a previous discussion of staysail booms, my question was simple: what is the tremendous advantage of the boom that would entice me to limit my foredeck space with that hardware? With the boom removed, I can put my dinghy on the foredeck. With self-tending boom and hardware in place, I can't. I've been sailing for three years with no boom and staysail sheets led aft; the only improvement I can see on my current rig would be to add a furler to the staysail, something I hope to do next year.

So again, can someone convince me I'm giving up 3/4 of a knot (or something) without the boom? I don't think so. Heaving-to is dead simple with my rig, as is tacking. I just don't see the need for the boom unless someone can explain what I'm missing, and it's a significant thing. Which I haven't heard yet.

[DEAN2140]

I have a Hoyt boom on my Alerion 28 and love it. It has a gas strut extender under the deck to make it easy to run wing 'n wing in light air. Ideal for short hand sailing.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by NedX

The camber spar fits inside the sail. I was looking at Freedoms a while back; they have them. You can see one in action in the first picture here.

Thanks Ned, a pic is worth 1000 words.

[geoleo]

I owned a IP 44, sailed on 32 and 38 and 35. The staysail booms worked well- they just keep any dinghy off the foredeck. As for the 35 it was my least fav IP--just wouldn't make it upwind without the engine. The 44 was best upwind by far. Amazing for a under 5ft raft. (4-11). lol

[wingssail]

I posted this previously, it's good reading from someone who knows.

Years ago Carol Hasse wrote about her views of club footed staysails. While loving the staysail she didn't have the same affection for the boom.
"A clubfooted staysail has its foot secured to a boom. Its foot may be attached to the boom (or club) with slides or lacing, but more commonly it’s loose-footed (attached to the club only at its tack and clew) to facilitate trimming. While a club-footed staysail’s self-tending ability is very useful when short tacking in winds over 15 knots, it has many disadvantages. For coastwise or bluewater cruising, I share yacht designer Bill Crealock’s sentiments about boomed staysails: “The first splash you’ll hear when you’re offshore is that of the club being thrown overboard.”

One of the main reasons I don’t like clubs on staysails is that they can become a crippling or lethal weapon during an accidental jibe or if a sheet parts or is let go when crew are working the foredeck. Clubs dominate the area forward of the mast, interfering with anchoring, making sail changes, keeping bow watch, storing a dinghy, or simply lounging.

When the staysail sheet is eased for a reach or a run, the boom lifts, opening the leech and allowing the forces in the head of the sail to round the boat up and induce rolling. A vang, preferably led to the cockpit, will prevent this, but it isn’t commonly rigged. As the wind increases, the staysail club also needs a preventer, although it’s difficult to find the necessary leverage point forward of the staysail stay to lead a preventer that will keep the sail from jibing. You should run both port and starboard leads for the preventer to the cockpit in case the staysail is caught aback or its boom is dipping into seas when the boat is rolling. Back-winding the staysail when coming about in order to speed up or ensure a new tack or when heaving to also becomes a problem with a self-tending, club-footed stays’l. You’ll have to go forward and secure the boom to windward or use a preventer led aft to hold the staysail aback. Exposed to deck wash and high winds, the staysail boom could also be a liability when you’re forced to work to weather with a storm staysail in extreme conditions.A staysail designed for a boom may be freed from its club and sheeted instead to staysail sheeting tracks retro-fitted to the cabin top or deck, as I’ve already described. This track is generally necessary for sheeting a storm staysail anyway. Unless a vessel is over 60 feet and single masted, it’s really quite easy to tack a staysail that isn’t self-tending. In fact, it can aid in staying on the new tack when coming about if you keep it back-winded while you sheet the jib or genoa home."
Now, as for my own opinion, get rid of the staysail too. A sloop with adequate sail area has no need for a staysail. Despite all the advocates stating the claimed advantages, nothing they claim really matters much if your sailboat actually can sail, as most should, without the tiny staysail.

Except! It is a good way to reduce sail area when you have a big genoa on the headstay.

[hpeer]

The above quote brings ip another point, there are cutters and then there are cutters.

A cutter without a bow sprit will have a relatively small staysail.

A cutter with a bow sprit can have a much more generous and powerful staysail.

I think it is important to recall this difference when discussing cutters and stay sails.

The staysail on our big boat is fitted with a reef point. To reduce its size even further. This boat has a 5’ long sprit and the staysail is attached at the stem head.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by hpeer

The above quote brings ip another point, there are cutters and then there are cutters.

A cutter without a bow sprit will have a relatively small staysail.

A cutter with a bow sprit can have a much more generous and powerful staysail.

I think it is important to recall this difference when discussing cutters and stay sails.

The staysail on our big boat is fitted with a reef point. To reduce its size even further. This boat has a 5’ long sprit and the staysail is attached at the stem head.

And on such boats a boom REALLY wipes out the foredeck as a work platform...IMO.

Jim

[hpeer]

Jim,

I dont find it a problem. We carry a Porte Boat on the life lines and have an inflating kayak in a bag under the boom.

But each to his own.

[zboss]

Our CR38 had a staysail boom and now we have a Manta with a camberspar.

What is said about the staysail boom is accurate except that we got most use out of it when we were sailing close to the wind so the boom having an opportunity to act as a club during a crash jibe never happened. Off the wind we would use our roller furled genoa.

The big advantage of the staysail boom was the ability to sheet it down tight for closely hauled and to help control rolling. It did take up a lot of foredeck space and I'm not sure that it would have been any better than having a dual sheet.

The camberspar also takes up deck space but sailing with the wind doesn't cause the leech to open up. Its more like a sailboard sail - it keeps the jib very tight and negates the need for a traveller. However, if we were to crash jibe I am sure that thing would turn into a baseball bat. Since the sail is hanked on you can leave it furled in place and hank on a genoa above it if you so choose. The flip side is that once our sails are up the only thing we need to do to tack is to turn the wheel.

The other oddity of the camberspar is that it tightens the rigging when its deployed since it pushes against the forestay and bends it quite significantly. The is a feature of the design.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jim,

I dont find it a problem. We carry a Porte Boat on the life lines and have an inflating kayak in a bag under the boom.

But each to his own.

Hey! Me too Except I carry the portabote on deck, and two inflatable kayaks down below.

The staysail boom does occupy significant foredeck space on my boat, but I still manage to assemble my portabote on deck with it there. Works great.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by NedX

Thanks, a64. I like the sound of "never have to leave the cockpit." I'm trying to understand the source of this hatred. I saw an older thread in which people were describing removing the boom to create space for a tender, and a caution that someone on the deck could get knocked off the boat if you unintentionally jibe. I'll take my chances with both.

If you have a normal jib on a furler w/o a boom, you never leave the cockpit to tack or furl.

Any boom low on the foredeck is an accident waiting to happen. Keep away.

Our experience with the club on a 51' Formosa was bad. I, and the rest of the crew, after nearly breaking our heads and legs, or almost diving overboard to get out of the way, forced the captain to leave it on the dock before we left San Diego for Tahiti. Downwind they are especially dangerous. Unlike a mainsail boom, which is over your head if you know when and where to duck, you can't get out of the way of a club jib that is gybing.

You'd think that the club jib would be a good sail to run nearly downwind in a blow. A preventer is needed. We were unable to make a preventer work using a line all the way to the bow. Angle was too narrow somehow. Maybe a line to a point on the deck or stanchion base aft of the bow, would work.

The jib on a boom is by necessity a small working jib. Tacking the same small size normal jib, w/o a boom, is easy enough that there is little justification for a boom.

I'd guess that short-tacking is seldom done in larger cruising boats, even with crew. Even if you had a club jib, the larger boat can't get sufficient speed on, before reaching the other side of the channel. You can short-tack a small boat up a channel, but in a small boat, quickly tacking a working jib, single handed, is easy if you have a decent autopilot.

I know lots of older designs had club jibs. Perhaps that was before modern jib sheet winches were available?

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by zboss

The other oddity of the camberspar is that it tightens the rigging when its deployed since it pushes against the forestay and bends it quite significantly. The is a feature of the design.

i noticed this in the pic that i posted above. That helps to flatten the staysail, no?

When hove to, the staysail is backed. That is why its called a STAY sail.