Lines in lieu of drogues?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by paul.devalier

I've started reading Peter Bruce's "Heavy Weather Sailing" and I am trying to understand this account by Christopher Price in a 1968 storm :

After a broach "we then put two warps about 20 fathoms each, tied at the ends so as to form a bight, and made off at first the primary and then the secondary winches."

Am I understanding correctly that they created a loop of line about 120 feet secured port and starboard on the winches to create drag and be a sort of poor man's emergency drogue?

Does this actually work in a pinch to keep stability and alignment with the waves?

I have plenty of line to carry as warps and I don't have a drogue. However, in 39 years cruising including circumnavigating, I never needed to deploy the warps. I don't have room to carry extra kit which in not needed, so I don't have the drogue.

[nofacey]

You know, after anyone does a bit of research planning for surviving in huge breaking waves, I scratch my head on why an offshore sailor wouldn’t carry a Jordan Series Drogue.
Yep, you can make do for a bit using lines & chain (damn if I have enough space to carry tires)
Damn if I’m intentionally turning my boat sideways to a towering breaking wave - heaving to is fine for a rest in a gale, not so hurricane generated waves (it’s the waves that get you).
Read Fastnet Force 10 or a decent documentary on New Zealand’s Queen’s Day Storm - then answer how you’d manage your boat through the same.

My wife made the JSD specifically for our boat, on passage it lived in a hockey bag on the transom, rigged ready to deploy - made a fine seat. Prepping our solution to the ultimate storm wasn’t that tough.

[Fi2010]

Why just a series drogue? Why not a para-anchor or speed-limiting drogue? There might be a situation where you should run instead of stop. Dangerous seas hitting you from two different directions could be one of those scenarios. The same situation Susie Goodall suffered when she inevitably had to be rescued.

Second, you’re more likely to need assistance with emergency steering, than getting caught in a storm. Although, with global weather changes who knows anymore.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Why just a series drogue? Why not a para-anchor or speed-limiting drogue?

We carried all three on our 2nd RTW (higher latitude with a couple long southern ocean legs). I wanted to have as many tools and options available as I could, and none of them are all that expensive (in boating terms) or that hard to stow.

We used the single element drogue by far the most.

True 'Survival' conditions do exist, but they are not frequent.

On the warps vs drogue question - in our direct experience it depends quite a bit on the boat. If you have a boat that surfs easily (like our 2nd boat) you probably need a drogue, but if you have an (often older) design which does not surf easily (like the Shannon we took on first rtw) then warps can do the job in many difficult situations (of stabilizing the track, keeping speed 'reasonable' and keeping the stern pointed into the waves).

[Fi2010]

Good examples Breaking Waves.

[lvictorlucas]

As stated adding a weight is usually a good idea to keep the line under water and keep tension on the line. I suggest a plow or simmular anchor and be very careful not to let it abrade the line. A Danford or large large fluke anchor will hydroplane ot of the water.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by nofacey

You know, after anyone does a bit of research planning for surviving in huge breaking waves, I scratch my head on why an offshore sailor wouldn’t carry a Jordan Series Drogue.

OK, I made a decision early on NOT to carry a drogue or parachute, later, many years of experience showed that I rarely needed either (never).

But why did I make the initial decision before I had much experience in the ocean?

1. I talked to a very experienced sailmaker/racer about his experience in a sistership to mine in Fastnet, the year when all the boats were lost. He said that sailing fast and steering was better than slowing or stopping. My boat is extremely responsive to rudder inputs and tracks very well. I subsequently have never experienced a tendency to broach, and my windvane easily keeps the boat on course even in big following seas.

2. I did not really have storage space below for a drogue and I am adamant that nothing gets stowed on deck. No drogue bag, no jerry cans, no dingy, nothing. So that made it difficult to take a drogue.

3. I didn't have the money anyway.

I know others with different views and opinions feel differently. My focus is to make and keep my boat seaworthy and able to sail in all conditions and that approach has worked for me.

[wingssail]

The other thing is that now days it is pretty easy to stay out of hurricanes. Weather forecasting and paying attention to seasons and localities where hurricanes can occur is not difficult.

Aside from hurricanes (over 64 knots of wind) which I have never expereinced, I am pretty confident that I can weather very bad conditions.

I have experienced severe storm conditions on the way to New Zealand (1998), conditions in which several boats and lives (including some of my friends) were lost. We were fine.

I have had to heave to in very bad conditions on Christmas day 2005 in the Bashi Channel between Taiwan and the Philippines. We rested peacefully until the storm passed.

And I surfed downwind off of Cabo de Vela in Columbia relaxing in the cockpit at dawn with a cup of Starbucks as my monitor steered us at 10kts down the faces of huge waves.

So why again do we need drogues?

[Fi2010]

As a US company manufacturing drag devices, the single element drogues pack down rather small. Speed-limiting for storm use and emergency steering due to rudder damage or loss is a significant benefit.

You can use existing anchor rode for para-anchors or speed-limiting drogues. This saves money and space.

[CaptainMarkS]

After reading Storm Tactics and Survival At Sea (mentioned earlier), we happily keep our Jordan Series drogue.

Regardless of tool, my advice is to practice deploying and retrieving it. It will expose issues that need to be addressed (e.g. chafe, cleat strength, etc...). Deploying in earnest without having thought about chafe and forces involved could be a recipe for disaster on top of disaster. Because of forces involved, we will attach the drogue to no fewer than three cleats on either side of the vessel with chafe protection, using aft winches to retrieve. It's all diagrammed in case we really need it.

[Fi2010]

Lin and Larry Pardey wrote the Storm Tacticts Handbook about their successful use of the para-anchor and heaving-to. They purchased a surplus para-anchor from our founder in 1968. Surplus parachutes are another way to save money.

Forces placed on you boat should be minimal if you maintain Constant Rode Tension in the system. Regardless of the equipment you deploy.

[nofacey]

Originally Posted by wingssail

The other thing is that now days it is pretty easy to stay out of hurricanes. Weather forecasting and paying attention to seasons and localities where hurricanes can occur is not difficult.

Aside from hurricanes (over 64 knots of wind) which I have never expereinced, I am pretty confident that I can weather very bad conditions.

I have experienced severe storm conditions on the way to New Zealand (1998), conditions in which several boats and lives (including some of my friends) were lost. We were fine.

I have had to heave to in very bad conditions on Christmas day 2005 in the Bashi Channel between Taiwan and the Philippines. We rested peacefully until the storm passed.

And I surfed downwind off of Cabo de Vela in Columbia relaxing in the cockpit at dawn with a cup of Starbucks as my monitor steered us at 10kts down the faces of huge waves.

So why again do we need drogues?

Ahh - for conditions over 60kts of wind with breaking waves…..
- I too have sailed (downwind) in 50kts in comfortable control, and circumnavigationed without deploying a drogue. Watched weather like a hawk using best tools available - **** still happens.
I sail with wife/family - have a plan for hurricane strength winds at sea with I believe to be the best chance of success.

Hopefully I never need it - but then I carry a certified life raft too.

Different strokes, glad you’re out there enjoying life!

[trswem]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Yes, trailing warps can work, but weight placement, as mentioned, is important. You would also have to add some floatation as well. All at the end of the warp(s).

After reading about use of warps by both Slocum and Knox-Johnston, I've been curious about them. Your commend about needing floatation also piques my interest. Can you explain what that does? I have naively always thought you'd wanting a sinking warp. My rationale being that if your experiencing steep seas with short periods, the warp could "rise up" between the crests.

[Mickeyrouse]

The thing about drags, drogues, etc is: if the wind continues to build and the next step is to set the parachute, that transition to deploying the chute with the warps still overboard can get dicey.

[CaptainMarkS]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

Lin and Larry Pardey wrote the Storm Tacticts Handbook about their successful use of the para-anchor and heaving-to. They purchased a surplus para-anchor from our founder in 1968. Surplus parachutes are another way to save money.

Forces placed on you boat should be minimal if you maintain Constant Rode Tension in the system. Regardless of the equipment you deploy.

"Minimal?" Expected (designed) max loads with our Jordan drogue are 12,500 lbs. There is no "constant rode tension" in lurching seas. The drogue is designed to prevent the vessel's forward momentum including with breaking waves over the stern. That's a LOT of force. Folks have lost sterns cleats along with their drogues not considering such forces involved.