Masthead Tricolour?

[Suijin]

My general rule of thumb is that if I'm within sight of land lights at night, I run deck level lights. If I'm offshore far enough I use the masthead.

[gamayun]

Hmm, I don't actually see any lights in those pictures. I guess that's the point! I know this is not technically allowed, but what are your thoughts about using the masthead strobe when way offshore? I know people who do this and they say it's easier for the big ships to pick out flashing rather than solid lights.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

[snip], believing that our AIS signal will be of more use to ships than our puny lights, [/snip]

^^^^This.

I've lost count now of the number of times I've watched a commercial vessel change course while still over the horizon (to us) to avoid a CPA less than a couple of miles. My AIS tells them who I am, where I'm going, and that I'm a sailing vessel. Didn't used to think it would be that great, but now wouldn't want to be without it. For me nav. lights are now for the smaller vessels that don't watch AIS.

[Badsanta]

Just a note. When a sailboat is motoring or motor sailing it is now a power boat and cannot display a mast top tri color because it is not a sailboat. Motoring the ICW in a sailboat you are really a power boat.

A sailboat is only a sailboat when under sail. Tri color can be used.

If your motor is on and in gear you are a power boat. No tri color. Then must use deck navigation lights and a steaming light (underway).
I'm sure you know this, I just want to make sure this wasn't overlooked by the new sailor​ I found some post's confusing.

[MLOI]

Originally Posted by Badsanta

Just a note. When a sailboat is motoring or motor sailing it is now a power boat and cannot display a mast top tri color because it is not a sailboat. Motoring the ICW in a sailboat you are really a power boat.

A sailboat is only a sailboat when under sail. Tri color can be used.

If your motor is on and in gear you are a power boat. No tri color. Then must use deck navigation lights and a steaming light (underway).
I'm sure you know this, I just want to make sure this wasn't overlooked by the new sailor​ I found some post's confusing.

Im not sure you are correct about when a sail boat is motor sailing.
I understand that anytime a boat has sail up, it is considered "under sail" - regardless of whether the motor is also running. So the tricolour is ok.

From a practical standpoint, my forward facing white steaming light is blanketed by my jib. Which also means light is reflected back at me, wrecking my night vision. So its tricolour for me any time sails are up. I've just finished a 6 month cruise up and down East coast Australia, and it seemed that the boats we did passages with followed the same approach.

Mike

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by MLOI

Im not sure you are correct about when a sail boat is motor sailing.
I understand that anytime a boat has sail up, it is considered "under sail" - regardless of whether the motor is also running. So the tricolour is ok.

From a practical standpoint, my forward facing white steaming light is blanketed by my jib. Which also means light is reflected back at me, wrecking my night vision. So its tricolour for me any time sails are up. I've just finished a 6 month cruise up and down East coast Australia, and it seemed that the boats we did passages with followed the same approach.

Mike

We have seen an amazing number of improperly lit yachts in Oz... and most other places that we have cruised. The fact that you think you are a sailboat when motorsailing does not make it true: it is not, and this is spelled out in COLREGS. Any time that you are propelled by machinery (ie engine running and in gear) you are, as far as COLREGS are concerned, a motor vessel. In fact, during daylight hours when motorsailing you are supposed to hoist an inverted cone shape to indicate that fact, and behave as a power boat should.

The dayshape rule is commonly disregarded. This practice does not make it correct. The common use of tricolour lamps whilst motoring does not make that practice correct either.

The issue of backscatter from the steaming light is valid. I am not aware of a legal means of avoiding it, beyond dropping the jib when motorsailing.

Jim

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Hmm, I don't actually see any lights in those pictures. I guess that's the point! I know this is not technically allowed, but what are your thoughts about using the masthead strobe when way offshore? I know people who do this and they say it's easier for the big ships to pick out flashing rather than solid lights.

Way offshore isn't a problem, there is no one there. A strobe will just confuse the hell out of folk. However, if things are getting scary then a white flare will focus attention. Only really happened once, when a ferry went over the top of my divers, despite the A flag and me shouting in the VHF. The saving grace was the divers were down 30m and knew there was a big vessel topside because of the noise and the doppler effect of a change in sound told them when the vessel had passed. Looking back I wish I had fired off a couple of white flares at the bridge.

Rule 25 does say "sailing vessels" and Rule 3c does give the following sailing vessel definition:

"The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted is not being used" Shame it doesn't say "for propulsion" at the end of the sentence".


Pete

[MLOI]

I just went and looked the definition up again, and you are of course correct.
I had forgotten the second part of the definition of a sailing vessel indicating that you are no longer a sailing vessel if the engine is being used.

It is a pity that the colregs differ so markedly from the reality of common usage - if a regulation is such that 90+% of a group of users are in conflict with it, it would seem that it is the regulation which needs changing. Day shapes on sailing boats is a good example, we saw exactly one anchored boat in 6 months with a black ball (friends of yours from Eden I belIeve). And I have never seen anyone flying an inverted cone.

As I have much more faith in AIS alerting ships to our presence than either set of lights, Im afraid that I will continue to do the wrong thing while motorsailing. At least that gives me a better chance of spotting other small vessels. And I noticed that ships tend to behave as if we are sailing all the time, given that they react to our AIS info, rather than looking to see if we have sails up. I am always greatful when I see a ship has altered course to maintian a cpa of at least a couple of miles.

Mike

[Ambler]

Good topic El Ping. I used to run a tri colour offshore and switched to nav lights mounted on pushpit and pulpit mounted nav lights when approaching or in harbour as well as when I (rarely) motor sail off shore.
I once had a wet trip offshore and coming into Sydney harbour early one morning had to revert to the tricolour as my port bow light blew when I turned it on. I nearly got run down by a trawler exiting and avoided collision with my dolphin torch flashed at his wheel house then on my sails.
So even inshore those tricolours get lost in the heavens when closing on another vessel. I don't use mast top anchor lights for the same reason.
I have however replaced the tricolour with a red over green (1m apart) at the mast top when offshore along with my 3 lower nav lights when under sail
PMing U 4 catchup

[StuM]

Originally Posted by MLOI

Im not sure you are correct about when a sail boat is motor sailing.

I understand that anytime a boat has sail up, it is considered "under sail" - regardless of whether the motor is also running. So the tricolour is ok.

He is correct, you are mistaken. I do wish people would read COLRGEs occasionally
RULE 3
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

From a practical standpoint, my forward facing white steaming light is blanketed by my jib. Which also means light is reflected back at me, wrecking my night vision. So its tricolour for me any time sails are up. I've just finished a 6 month cruise up and down East coast Australia, and it seemed that the boats we did passages with followed the same approach.

Mike

Yep, the illuminated headsail under power is both a disadvantage and and advantage. It certainly makes you easier to see by other vessels, especially overtaking ones.

Maybe you can try motorsailing under main only at night?

Just because others do it doesn't make it correct.

[Blackie Swart]

We just crossed the Atlantic with friends of ours within sight of each other on another yacht. We don't have a Masthead Tricolour on our Leopard. If we were a fair distance apart I could see their Masthead lights but they could not even see our deck level lights. This applied to other vessels as well, including tankers. We asked on Captain if he had a visual on us (at night) and he could only see one vessel.
I definitely be fitting a Tricolour.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Blackie Swart

We just crossed the Atlantic with friends of ours within sight of each other on another yacht. We don't have a Masthead Tricolour on our Leopard. If we were a fair distance apart I could see their Masthead lights but they could not even see our deck level lights. This applied to other vessels as well, including tankers. We asked on Captain if he had a visual on us (at night) and he could only see one vessel.
I definitely be fitting a Tricolour.

Yes, my experience as well in offshore races with both catamaran sailboats and monohulls. Didn't take much sea state to blanket nav lights mounted on bow pulpit.

[Polux]

From all that was said it seems evident that in some cases deck lights are better (near a shore with lights) and on others a masthead tricolor is better.

That is why I have both mounted on my boat. I can chose the one I want to use. It serves also as a back up in case any of the deck lights stop working.

I mounted that after a passage with very bad weather at night, with big waves and the bow covered with water most of the time....and then one of the lamps went out. I was at cap St Vincente, the corner of Iberia and a very busy place with maritime transit. Felt naked with that light out. I was alone and going to the bow to change that lamp, on those conditions was not an option.

Anyway with the 6 or 7 meters waves I bet that the lights should be really hard to see from a boat.

[Cheechako]

If your point is that near shore the masthead light may get lost easier in the shore lights, then yes I give that to you.
However the other point about at sea is well taken also, the higher up the light is the sooner it may be noticed.
Everything is a trade off. My boats had the tri color and normal lights. It was easy to use whichever was appropriate.
As we all know.... at sea, from a distance, all you see is white light until you get closer. So anything as high and bright as possible is likely a good thing. Especially from the big bridge, obscured by windows of unknown cleanliness, reflections and with a bored watchman.

[goat]

Colregs aside, tricolour lights up the windex so it makes sense to use when sailing. Sailing through a fleet of trawlers last week (about forty or so) I switched to deck level lights so the other boats could differentiate port from starboard more easily as they weren't as familiar with sailboats. None of the fishing boats has AIS, which would have been nice. A long night. Ever play 'frogger'?