MOB for Couples

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by gamayun

... dropping a "pin" each hour during night watches in case your partner doesn't know exactly when you went in, they at least might have a last known possible position to start the search.

Thanks for that, not something I've seen before. But if dropping the pin requires action on the human's part then you at least have an outer bound for a missing mate. Without it you're back at the last change of watch.

[Dave_S]

I always liked the idea of having a laser light on the PFD's.

It is far more likely that the person in the water will see the boat than the boat see them, or worse if it goes on a long time aircraft.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Oh boy, this is a fraught subject because the low likelihood of success in the kind of conditions that a person is liable to go over the side are the conditions where boat control and visibility of MOB are both very difficult. The problems to solve are legion and if we add incapacity of the MOB due to injury or cold it becomes even more difficult. Sigh.

Four parts to the problem:

1/ Stay on the boat! This implies strict adherence to tethering whenever outside the cabin and jacklines and tether anchors that are far enough onboard that you won’t be dangling over the side from them. Hard to enforce even on self in benign conditions and very much depend on the type of boat. I really like the idea of rigging chest high lifelines around the working areas of the deck to help with this, especially for boats with wider decks and/or fewer handholds.

2/ MOB alerting and locating the MOB. For a cruising couple this means electronic PMOB AIS units and AIS or chart plotter alarms loud enough to wake a sleeping person and automatic MOB marking on the chart plotter. How loud - the sleeping person may be wearing earplugs (my wife does, especially in heavier weather) and in a far away cabin. For MOBs that take place in front of the other person then a dan bouy pole with flag and light and sea anchor enable further sight lines on the MOB (assuming they can swim). Plastimo and others have inflatable that are very easy to use. Is something to throw always available and is the MOB button for the chart plotter easily accessed from the cockpit?

3/ Returning to the MOB, which implies getting your boat under manual control and getting turned around and back to the MOB’s position. 20 knots of true wind speed and 4 metre swells with breaking tops are very different when you turn from downwind or reaching to back upwind. Can both person’s manage this on their own in any conditions? Is a chart plotter MOB display visible at the control station?

4/ Bring the MOB back onboard. First part is connecting the MOB to the boat - a lifesling or similar is key to keeping your boat away from the MOB. The float collar or horseshoe at the end of a long line means it’s pretty easy to circle the MOB and they can grab the line and work their way to the float. Second part is getting the MOB back onboard. Forget your sugar scoop(s) - in any sort of seas they’re death traps for a person in the water. So a halyard or block and tackle clipped to the float collar can be used to lift the MOB up and over the lifelines. While the boat is rocking and rolling, probably side on to potentially dangerous seas. And if the MOB is incapacitated? How to get them attached to the boat? How to hook them up to a halyard? How to get them up the freeboard and onto the deck? And what about avoiding cold shocking their heart and killing them (in my time as a volunteer Coast Guard rescue unit member in a cold water port, we would always parbuckle MOBs horizontally to avoid cold blood from the legs hitting their core)?

The last step is probably the most difficult. Is the story true about a woman coming into port towing her husband’s body because she couldn’t get him back onboard after a MOB incident offshore?

It all really depends on #1, stay on the boat.

Ah yes..... the old “sugar scoop death trap” myth, it didn’t take long for that to be hauled out and tossed into the mix. Just guess how the overboard man and dog got back on board our boat? Yes, the sugar scoop, glad we have one or two of them.

When the boat is heaved to as it should be when one is about to haul aboard the MOB in most conditions.... the sugar scoop (and boat that it’s attached to) ride up and down with the water level in sync. There’s no “death trap.” Simply grab hold of the swim ladder and climb aboard. Easy peasy.

[thinwater]

It is important for the MOB to keep their elbows DOWN when being winched aboard. They always want to help, but the will ONLY slide out of jackets etc. if they lift their arms. So scream at them to put their elbows down and lock hands!!



When the sugar scoop is safe it should be used. If not, hoist. I've seen both. However, on multihulls, the motion of the boat is different (no keel, less weight) and sugar scoops with a ladder are nearly always safe enough (a few bruises perhaps).

[Paul L]

In offshore MOB situations it is very likely that the MOB will not be able to assist in their recovery. See the Mackinaw race MOB report
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/w...ent_Report.pdf

Temperature, injuries, shock, and partial drowning from water spray intake all conspire to drain the MOB quickly. It is up to the onboard crew to do pretty much all the recovery work.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Paul L

In offshore MOB situations it is very likely that the MOB will not be able to assist in their recovery. See the Mackinaw race MOB report
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/w...ent_Report.pdf

Temperature, injuries, shock, and partial drowning from water spray intake all conspire to drain the MOB quickly. It is up to the onboard crew to do pretty much all the recovery work.

Correct. So what is your suggestion for doing this solo? It's a good question.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Ah yes..... the old “sugar scoop death trap” myth, it didn’t take long for that to be hauled out and tossed into the mix. Just guess how the overboard man and dog got back on board our boat? Yes, the sugar scoop, glad we have one or two of them.

When the boat is heaved to as it should be when one is about to haul aboard the MOB in most conditions.... the sugar scoop (and boat that it’s attached to) ride up and down with the water level in sync. There’s no “death trap.” Simply grab hold of the swim ladder and climb aboard. Easy peasy.

As a diver trying to get on a swim platform in rough seas, I can assure you it's asking for trouble and requires great care. The swim platform or scoop movement is of the entire vessel, and will most likely bob independently of you, and it only takes one out of sync movement to knock you out or rip your arm off the swim ladder.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

As a diver trying to get on a swim platform in rough seas, I can assure you it's asking for trouble and requires great care. The swim platform or scoop movement is of the entire vessel, and will most likely bob independently of you, and it only takes one out of sync movement to knock you out or rip your arm off the swim ladder.

I don't recall the MOB or his dog being knocked out or having their arms or legs ripped off when I brought them back on board using our sugar scoop stern. Maybe you should try the heave to maneuver to settle the motion prior to boarding.

My experience was different than what you describe. Most MOB situations happen in relatively benign conditions, when boarding is easy peasy via the sugar scoop. Why is this? Because... most boaters only go out in the most benign of conditions.

Therefore, I suggest that it's appropriate to practice MOB situations in relatively benign conditions because that's when a MOB is most likely to occur IMO.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I don't recall the MOB or his dog being knocked out or having their arms or legs ripped off when I brought them back on board using our sugar scoop stern. Maybe you should try the heave to maneuver to settle the motion prior to boarding.

My experience was different than what you describe. Most MOB situations happen in relatively benign conditions, when boarding is easy peasy via the sugar scoop. Why is this? Because... most boaters only go out in the most benign of conditions.

Therefore, I suggest that it's appropriate to practice MOB situations in relatively benign conditions because that's when a MOB is most likely to occur IMO.

You should not assume that the way it went in one isolated incident is the way it always is.


When the vessel is pitching -- which happens often but not always when there is wave action -- you must stay away from the transom of a monohull when you're trying to get someone on board.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . Even without a lifesling (which we have), this is how I would approach a real MOB. Even from our practices, it’s clear the critical factor is loosing sight of the MOB. In actual conditions that a MOB is mostly likely to occur, sailing away from the MOB to attempt a figure 8 or triangle, or whatever manoeuvre, seems dangerous and foolish to me.

I agree completely. We use the quick stop method under all circumstances and I am convinced that this is the right way to maximize the chances of saving the casualty.


The figure 8 maneuver was designed for sailboats without engines and/or without sails which can be gotten down easily. It's not the right maneuver -- in my opinion -- for modern cruising boats with roller furling and powerful diesels.


Sailing away from the victim is very dangerous, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes . I guess I’m slow, but I just recently became aware of these AIS-PLBs. I like the look of them.

The truth is if you go over, you’re probably dead. Despite all the nice how-to videos, an actual MOB situation is more likely to occur when conditions are not optimal. Off-watch crew is down below, possible sleeping. Conditions are on the ‘dark and stormy’ side of life, not the ‘fair and calm’ that practice usually happens in. Add to this the very strong likelihood that the MOB is also injured, and in our case, is now swimming it cold water where function is measured in minutes, and survival in tens of minutes.

All of this adds up to the only real rule on our boat: DON’T FALL OFF!

I think the statistics support your view. In UK waters at least I think that less than half of MOB victims survive.


I think that there are two items of gear which make a really big difference in the survival chances of the victim, whether you're crewed or double handed -- AIS-beacons, and in cold water, dry suits.


AIS MOB beacons are game-changers and have saved many lives, giving you totally different chances of finding the victim.


But even so, people die with both AIS beacons and drysuits -- the last Clipper Round the World fatality, for example, and that was with a fully crewed vessel with a pro skipper.


I think that your chances of surviving MOB are much worse still, when sailing double handed, so kudos to Thinwater for this thread.




Another issue which kills many MOB victims, and it happens over and over again, is being dragged alongside the boat by your tether. We discussed it here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...rs-195462.html. Apparently the position you are held in by the tether point forces water into your mouth and drowns you almost instantly. There is a new type of life vest being sold in Cowes which will let the tether point flip around to your back, to save you in that case. Forgot what it's called, but I think about acquiring some of these.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You should not assume that the way it went in one isolated incident is the way it always is.


When the vessel is pitching -- which happens often but not always when there is wave action -- you must stay away from the transom of a monohull when you're trying to get someone on board.

Have ever actually saved a MOB in an unrehearsed real-life situation? Not a practice situation in nice weather, but with real waves and 20 knots of wind and adrenaline pumping through your body at full speed? And alone, whilst knowing if you screw it up... someone will die?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Have ever actually saved a MOB in an unrehearsed real-life situation? Not a practice situation in nice weather, but with real waves and 20 knots of wind and adrenaline pumping through your body at full speed? And alone, whilst knowing if you screw it up... someone will die?

One isolated incident in one set of conditions, does not make you an expert, Ken.


The next time in different conditions may be totally different from what happened then.


I have saved an MOB once, and I've been MOB myself twice, but that by itself does not make me an expert, either. You have to study, practice, study, think, read, and listen to people who have other experience and other knowledge -- only like that will you gradually become knowledgeable.



Make up your own mind of course -- you're the skipper on your own boat and solely responsible for the safety of those on board -- but I would suggest approaching the transom of your boat sometime when she's lying at anchor in lively weather with wave action, and observing the interaction of the counter with the water. You'll find it educational.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Have ever actually saved a MOB in an unrehearsed real-life situation? Not a practice situation in nice weather, but with real waves and 20 knots of wind and adrenaline pumping through your body at full speed? And alone, whilst knowing if you screw it up... someone will die?

Hey, if the conditions are such that using the sugar scoop is safe, then go for it - it’s the easiest and quickest way to drag someone onboard and keeps them closer to horizontal. But I’m sure you realise that your boat pivots some distance forward of your stern, so it’s always possible in a seaway for your stern to be out of sync of the waves.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Correct. So what is your suggestion for doing this solo? It's a good question.

There obviously is not one way to deal with the problem. Your partner could be on deck, daytime and you could be in protected waters, as described in one post, and the classic, crewed style recovery with the single crew doing everything is probably reasonable. With the addition of getting off a Mayday to try and get nearby boats involved. Odds are not great, but there is still a decent chance.

Now if you are on passage, its 3am on a moonless night, its blowing 30kts in 10 ft seas, you are trying to fix a broken goose neck and a gybe occurs and puts your crew in the water with an injury. Or you are on watch and you see a line on the side deck going over and you reach to grab it, get hit by a wave, somehow get unclipped and go over. Crew comes up an hour latter to find you missing......

In these scenarios in the past I've pretty much resigned myself to saying there is a near zero chance of recovery. We have recently purchased tbe DSC/AIS MOB devices for our inflatable life vests. This partially releaves the single crew from trying, probably unsuccessfully, tracking the MOB. The crew can get the boat under control, engine started and travel back to the beacon location even after getting more than a mile away. Odds are now greater than zero. On my boat you aren't going to sleep through a DSC alarm.

We have a Galerider drogue, the webbed basket style. We plan to use that to get the MOB onboard if the MOB is unable to use the lifesling.

As far as the dangers of the swimstep go. It depends. Have you ever gone in the water to clear a line from the prop in 3 foot seas. It is very dangerous under there.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

There obviously is not one way to deal with the problem. Your partner could be on deck, daytime and you could be in protected waters, as described in one post, and the classic, crewed style recovery with the single crew doing everything is probably reasonable. With the addition of getting off a Mayday to try and get nearby boats involved. Odds are not great, but there is still a decent chance.

Now if you are on passage, its 3am on a moonless night, its blowing 30kts in 10 ft seas, you are trying to fix a broken goose neck and a gybe occurs and puts your crew in the water with an injury. Or you are on watch and you see a line on the side deck going over and you reach to grab it, get hit by a wave, somehow get unclipped and go over. Crew comes up an hour latter to find you missing......

In these scenarios in the past I've pretty much resigned myself to saying there is a near zero chance of recovery. We have recently purchased tbe DSC/AIS MOB devices for our inflatable life vests. This partially releaves the single crew from trying, probably unsuccessfully, tracking the MOB. The crew can get the boat under control, engine started and travel back to the beacon location even after getting more than a mile away. Odds are now greater than zero. On my boat you aren't going to sleep through a DSC alarm.. . .

The DSC/AIS MOB beacon improves the chances of recovering your body in such a case


In cold water and strong weather with no dry suit, with no one on deck when you go over, I think your chances of survival closely approximate zero, without a beacon.



Even with a beacon it will be a significant challenge for your now single handed crew to maneuver back to you and get you back on board, in 10 foot seas, before you expire from hypothermia. Not zero, perhaps, but slim.


We have really sad cases where fully crewed boats couldn't save MOB's even with a beacon and even after successfully maneuvering back to them -- they died while the crew was faffing about struggling to get them on board.


Note well that after only a few minutes in cold water without a dry suit, the MOB will be unable to use a lifesling or clip himself onto a lifting tackle.


What the heck do you do in that case, double handed?? I don't know.



We did a lot of intense preparation for MOB last summer before going to the Arctic, but we were fully crewed with physically fit people. We practiced pulling live people out of the icy water for an entire morning. For debilitated victims, we used a designated rescue swimmer who got into the water to clip the victim into the lifting tackle.


This worked well, but you can't do that double handed.




Incidentally, concerning lifting people out -- we learned a lot, but I think there is still a great deal left to learn. Every person on board got lifted out at least once with a lifesling, at least once with the harness, and at least once with a loop of rope.



What we learned from that is that none of these is entirely satisfactory. Lifesling is the worst position, and some of us felt the blood draining away and onset of fainting -- dangerous for a victim in shock. Also the totally vertical body position makes it harder to swing the victim over the rail, which could be a critical issue if the vessel is rolling heavily. Lastly, the victim has to be strong enough to hold on, or he slips through the Lifesling and falls out. Harness was not really good because the crotch straps are not really strong enough -- we broke one -- dangerous. Loop of rope was probably the best, with the best and most secure position, but the biggest faff for a victim who is already getting debilitated by immersion in cold water.


I think your Galerider is the best device by far for lifting a victim, and this could be used for both active and debilitated victims. We thought about parbuckling, but this seems really risky if the boat is rolling heavily.


I would be happy to hear if anyone has any other ideas, particularly for a double handed boat, but the challenge of lifting out the victim should not be underestimated.