MOB for Couples

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You need to read the extended version of directions or watch the video more closely. Using a LifeSling involves immediately tacking into the wind without touching the jib sheet and letting it backwind, then sailing a circle around the MOB without touching the sails, assuming they're somewhat close-hauled. It's fast and doesn't require any more effort for your significant other than by yourself. Easy peasy. My wife executes the rescue just as easily as I can, you should also be able to do it on your Hunter.

After the circular sail around the MOB is complete which takes about a minute or two, the life ring will be with the MOB who can then be pulled towards the now stalled boat via heaving to. Motoring back to the MOB when on a sailboat is discouraged for safety reasons.

"Don't fall off!" is not a viable plan for MOB recovery, but seems to be often repeated here on CF.

Of course it is easy peasy when the water is flat and the wind is less than 10kts on those benign days you take your boat out.

But, in confused seas with winds < 25kts doing that silly 'Lifesling' maneuver is both foolish and dangerous.

We should not assume that everyone sails in a lake, or on benign days.

You are correct... the "harness in and don't fall off" is not a viable plan for MOB recovery. But, it is a very viable plan to prevent a MOB situation in the first place.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Of course it is easy peasy when the water is flat and the wind is less than 10kts on those benign days you take your boat out.

But, in confused seas with winds < 25kts doing that silly 'Lifesling' maneuver is both foolish and dangerous.

We should not assume that everyone sails in a lake, or on benign days.

You are correct... the "harness in and don't fall off" is not a viable plan for MOB recovery. But, it is a very viable plan to prevent a MOB situation in the first place.

Please see post #2 and #44, watch and learn.

[hellosailor]

We had a HOB situation some years back. That's HAT OverBoard. And I wanted my hat back. (Besides, leaving it in the water was a MARPOL violation.) A boat heading the other way waved that they'd get the hat for us...and they ran right over it.

It is possible to be too eager at retrieving crew, or hats, in the water.

But when it comes to lifting crew, they simply CAN'T fall out of the PFD if it has a crotch strap. Yes, that's a nuisance and it can cause some pain when too tight...but if anyone is wearing a PFD without the crotch strap(s), they're doing a half-assed job.

When it comes to marking the MOB, I think the best thing is still a MOB Pole. Since that's normally carried "on" the backstay and you only have to reach back, lift it up, and drop it to deploy it...even a harried helmsperson can manage that. If you have a split backstay or other "problem" installation, it can still be lashed to the toerail with velcro or something easy to cut/break, so again, the helmsperson can easily tear it free. And if the MOB pole is attached to a life ring that's in a simple cradle...it should play out and be able to pull the lifering in with it, giving the MOB something to hang onto. Doesn't have to be ungainly or complicated.

Of course, if you just abandon the helm, blow the main, then start the engine and try to see the MOB...that's probably going to keep you as close and effective as anything else. Can't see them in the water? Put out a mayday call, then go back to looking. You do what you can. And try really hard NOT TO RUN THEM DOWN with the boat.

[Dsanduril]

I still think that for a couple the difficulty is still most likely to be finding the MOB. We just crossed the Atlantic and I would say that the entire crossing qualified as the benign conditions that Kenomac describes. It was actually some of the most pleasant passagemaking we've done. But with only two of us aboard there was probably 8-10 hours a day when we were awake together, 14-16 hours a day when one of us was awake and one asleep. So the odds are that if someone went overboard no one would see it. No one to throw the lifering. No one to toss the MOB pole. The mantra of 'never lose sight of the MOB' frequently doesn't work for couples, even in benign conditions.

[hpeer]

Some boats pitch, some boats roll.

We’ve had a swell the last couple of days. Most boats are rolling pretty good. We are not rolling, but we are pitching.

Different boats, different motions. A stern revival could be very dangerous on our transome boat. But amidships, she is placid.

[hellosailor]

Dsanduril-
Your best bet for a situation like that is luggage tags.
Basically two pieces, one alarm that you have on you, the other a tag that you put on your luggage. If someone walks off with your luggage, the alarm rings once it is ~50' away. On a boat...you tag the person on watch, you keep the alarm below.
Or, in recent years, there have been gen-you-whine marine grade waterproof gizmos that do exactly the same thing the same way, for boaters. If you're pulling solo watches...a very good way to let your spouse know they're about to inherit everything. (WEG)

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I think you're missing the point I've been trying to make. Very few MOB situations happen which require any of the preparations you mention above. We should be discussing what to do in the common everyday situations, not the extreme conditions that only a few will ever encounter in a lifetime of cruising. Having a sugar scoop or easy method to board the boat is fundamental for these common situations.

Otherwise, to me worrying about what to do in 30ft seas and how to crane a MOB aboard in 40 know winds is simply a waste of cyberspace IMO. It's a discussion without any practical application.

BTW: A LifeSling rescue involves having the sails up and not using the engine.

Read post 20. It has nothing to do with sugar scoops (which I agree may work sometimes--I've used them in easy conditions). Different topic.

"In offshore MOB situations it is very likely that the MOB will not be able to assist in their recovery. See the Mackinaw race MOB report
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/w...ent_Report.pdf

Temperature, injuries, shock, and partial drowning from water spray intake all conspire to drain the MOB quickly. It is up to the onboard crew to do pretty much all the recovery work."

The question is "how does one person help another who cannot help themselves, including establishing physical contact?" Let's assume for the moment that the person cannot get themselves into a Lifesling or grab a line. In cold water, this is not unusual.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

... Your best bet for a situation like that is luggage tags....(WEG)

Understood, I agree that modern electronics are your friend (and said so back at page 1). A lot of the discussion is around how to get the other person back on the boat, but in shorthanded sailing I think the problem starts much sooner - finding the MOB. All of the 'textbook' maneuvers expect that 'someone' saw the person go over and that 'someone' can keep their eyes on the MOB while the 'rest of the crew' performs whatever maneuver. The OP specifically asked about couples - so after the MOB the boat is singlehanded - and I think the conversation on techniques has to start long before retrieval of the person (body ).

For instance, I really appreciated Gamayun's post on having the watchstander drop a pin on the charting system regularly. But even with that, so that your search are is limited, you have to have plans for how to develop a search, how to get the boat back in the right direction, how to estimate drift. Of course, a position indicating device like AIS on the MOB makes that a whole lot simpler.

The Liefesling maneuver simply doesn't work if the other member of the crew was sleeping, has to wake up to an alarm, has to figure out what is going on, has to get on deck, etc. By the time all that happens the singlehanded boat is a pretty great distance from the MOB.

[thinwater]

A classic "Lifesling Manuver" is pointlessly; a multihull hauling ass is probably out of range before the sling its that water if the helmsman was paying attention. OBVIOUSLY you are going to have to come back first. You could also make the rope considerably longer for couples boats.



Yes, there are challenges, but leaning over the rail, on a wet deck, all alone, trying to haul a limp body that may out weigh the crew (your wife hauling your limp ass) is wishful thinking, assuming you can make contact. The sling (some floating object) plus long rope make for a much larger target.


AIS (other locator) and not falling off are clearly smart.

[Dsanduril]

Not saying that a Lifesling is useless for the retrieval part of the process, just the maneuver itself, especially singlehanded.

FWIW I've been fished out of the water a couple dozen times during the MOB classes we used to teach. Up the sugar scoop, Lifesling, and many other techniques. From the limp body perspective (I never helped in my own recovery - teaching the worst case scenario) I find a harness/lifejacket with crotch straps to be the most secure. The difficulty with that approach is attaching the lifting line. Imagine your partner picking up a mooring singlehanded, then change the mooring to getting a lifting line onto your harness. Still, from the other perspective I never once slipped or felt I might be coming out during the lift. Lifesling is difficult/impossible without some level of cooperation from the MOB, and I have come out of one during a lift.

One trick we used with some success was to fit the shackle end of our tethers with a small bullet float (from the fishing tackle department). Just enough to allow the end of the tether to float (of course, if you have your harness and tether on then why are you in the water?). That allows someone with a boat hook to pick up your tether and use that for the lift.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Not saying that a Lifesling is useless for the retrieval part of the process, just the maneuver itself, especially singlehanded.

FWIW I've been fished out of the water a couple dozen times during the MOB classes we used to teach. Up the sugar scoop, Lifesling, and many other techniques. From the limp body perspective (I never helped in my own recovery - teaching the worst case scenario) I find a harness/lifejacket with crotch straps to be the most secure. The difficulty with that approach is attaching the lifting line. Imagine your partner picking up a mooring singlehanded, then change the mooring to getting a lifting line onto your harness. Still, from the other perspective I never once slipped or felt I might be coming out during the lift. Lifesling is difficult/impossible without some level of cooperation from the MOB, and I have come out of one during a lift.

One trick we used with some success was to fit the shackle end of our tethers with a small bullet float (from the fishing tackle department). Just enough to allow the end of the tether to float (of course, if you have your harness and tether on then why are you in the water?). That allows someone with a boat hook to pick up your tether and use that for the lift.

This is why I like having a 20-40' x 3/8" utility line in the cockpit with a wire gate climbing biner on the end. Very fast. Unused spin sheets can work, but put a biner on the end (through the eye splice) first, since it is easier to use and won't release.

[boom23]

Great topic and very relevant to many of us...

Talking about attaching a lifting line to an untethered, unresponsive MOB, I would probably use a Wichard Mooring Ball Hook attached to a pole and a rope pulley system, attached to the boom end. I will be using this setup to lift the dinghy outboard. But, there are so many variables involved with a MOB situation... Practice and preparation are the extremely important.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Read post 20. It has nothing to do with sugar scoops (which I agree may work sometimes--I've used them in easy conditions). Different topic.

"In offshore MOB situations it is very likely that the MOB will not be able to assist in their recovery. See the Mackinaw race MOB report
https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/w...ent_Report.pdf

Temperature, injuries, shock, and partial drowning from water spray intake all conspire to drain the MOB quickly. It is up to the onboard crew to do pretty much all the recovery work."

The question is "how does one person help another who cannot help themselves, including establishing physical contact?" Let's assume for the moment that the person cannot get themselves into a Lifesling or grab a line. In cold water, this is not unusual.

Originally Posted by thinwater

A classic "Lifesling Manuver" is pointlessly; a multihull hauling ass is probably out of range before the sling its that water if the helmsman was paying attention. OBVIOUSLY you are going to have to come back first. You could also make the rope considerably longer for couples boats.



Yes, there are challenges, but leaning over the rail, on a wet deck, all alone, trying to haul a limp body that may out weigh the crew (your wife hauling your limp ass) is wishful thinking, assuming you can make contact. The sling (some floating object) plus long rope make for a much larger target.


AIS (other locator) and not falling off are clearly smart.

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Not saying that a Lifesling is useless for the retrieval part of the process, just the maneuver itself, especially singlehanded.

FWIW I've been fished out of the water a couple dozen times during the MOB classes we used to teach. Up the sugar scoop, Lifesling, and many other techniques. From the limp body perspective (I never helped in my own recovery - teaching the worst case scenario) I find a harness/lifejacket with crotch straps to be the most secure. The difficulty with that approach is attaching the lifting line. Imagine your partner picking up a mooring singlehanded, then change the mooring to getting a lifting line onto your harness. Still, from the other perspective I never once slipped or felt I might be coming out during the lift. Lifesling is difficult/impossible without some level of cooperation from the MOB, and I have come out of one during a lift.

One trick we used with some success was to fit the shackle end of our tethers with a small bullet float (from the fishing tackle department). Just enough to allow the end of the tether to float (of course, if you have your harness and tether on then why are you in the water?). That allows someone with a boat hook to pick up your tether and use that for the lift.

Sounds to me like you all need to figure it out for yourselves, my contribution from real-life experiences and practice is apparently falling on deaf ears or blind eyes, whichever. Hopefully, someone reading this thread with an open mind learned something, if not.... my time has been wasted.... again.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by boom23

Great topic and very relevant to many of us...

Talking about attaching a lifting line to an untethered, unresponsive MOB, I would probably use a Wichard Mooring Ball Hook attached to a pole and a rope pulley system, attached to the boom end. I will be using this setup to lift the dinghy outboard. But, there are so many variables involved with a MOB situation... Practice and preparation are the extremely important.

Intriguing. But I'm not sure the problem is the same.

Notice that inflated PFDs block access to the ring on the harness (about 1:10 to 1:30). On some PFDs, in fact, it is impossible to reach the harness clip to release it (proven in testing). So what are you going to hook onto?

It seems to me the person either has to clip themselves (an a mooring pole would be way awkward for that) or a swimmer has to do it for them.

What am I missing? I think they only work if there is a ring or bar standing up firmly, which there is not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th8tmqD0h1o

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by boom23

Great topic and very relevant to many of us...

Talking about attaching a lifting line to an untethered, unresponsive MOB, I would probably use a Wichard Mooring Ball Hook attached to a pole and a rope pulley system, attached to the boom end. I will be using this setup to lift the dinghy outboard. But, there are so many variables involved with a MOB situation... Practice and preparation are the extremely important.

If it was too rough you might be able to use one of these from a distance ?.


https://youtu.be/7EAwDS9i9p0