MOB for Couples

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sounds to me like you all need to figure it out for yourselves, my contribution from real-life experiences and practice is apparently falling on deaf ears or blind eyes, whichever. Hopefully, someone reading this thread with an open mind learned something, if not.... my time has been wasted.... again.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I have NOT pulled quite a number of people out of the water, including divers, skiers, people from capsized day sailers, and drills. Mostly they have come up ladders or sugar scoops, but not always. We also know about paying attention and wearing tethers. We're moving beyond that.


No, I don't think your comments were wasted.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sounds to me like you all need to figure it out for yourselves, my contribution from real-life experiences and practice is apparently falling on deaf ears or blind eyes, whichever. Hopefully, someone reading this thread with an open mind learned something, if not.... my time has been wasted.... again.

Ken, respectfully, you describe one experience, under one set of conditions and then seem to think you can extrapolate that to every other MOB situation. I just simply don't agree with you. And, yes, I too have experience with both real (unintentional) and simulated (intentional) MOB events.

You assert (with no proof) that MOBs mostly happen in your ideal conditions but don't get reported. I'd argue that if that's the case it's because under those conditions it's so dead easy to deal with that even people who don't practice are successful at recovery. USCG statistics say that one-third of MOB cases don't make it back out of the water alive. Even if that has to be adjusted to "one-third of difficult MOB events that actually get reported" don't make it out of the water alive it's the difficult ones for which I would like to be prepared. Then the benign ones are almost rote.

[boom23]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Intriguing. But I'm not sure the problem is the same.

Notice that inflated PFDs block access to the ring on the harness (about 1:10 to 1:30). On some PFDs, in fact, it is impossible to reach the harness clip to release it (proven in testing). So what are you going to hook onto?

It seems to me the person either has to clip themselves (an a mooring pole would be way awkward for that) or a swimmer has to do it for them.

What am I missing? I think they only work if there is a ring or bar standing up firmly, which there is not.

Again, there are SO many variables... A mooring hook should allow the person on board to hook up anywhere on the MOB's lifejacket. I would be trying to grab behind their back, chest/waist area, anything that presents itself.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Sounds to me like you all need to figure it out for yourselves, my contribution from real-life experiences and practice is apparently falling on deaf ears or blind eyes, whichever. Hopefully, someone reading this thread with an open mind learned something, if not.... my time has been wasted.... again.

So somehow you think that all of us are going to fall overboard in the same inshore situation you did. Since we tend to do many more long passages in new offshore areas than you do, why would our situation match yours?
Since the chance that someone goes overboard on a cruising boat is extremely minimal, saying that the odds that you'll go over in benign conditions is the most likely is not meaningful. 2x minmal is just minimal.
As far as succesful recoveries not being publicized, I have certainly heard of many but they are typically on crewed race boats.

Dealing with an MOB in offshore conditions with a Mom and Pop crew is far more challenging. Planning on the person in the water being in a condition to help them selves after an extended offshore return to the MOB is unrealistic.

Can't imagine why you think a LifeSling is only for use under sail. With the remaining single crew doing everything succes is far more likely under power.

[nautical62]

Even at anchor, I can't haul myself over the side of my boat and through the lifelines, not even if someone onboard offers me their hand. I have however, jumped overboard underway with a line, rolled onto my back and hauled myself up to the transom (1) and gottenback on board without another person helping. Of course, if a person was on board, they could simply depower the boat, wrap the line around the available jib winch and start winching - no need to drop the sail, re-rig the tackle etc to bring someone over the side as the previous video shows. Many boats are designed for entry from the water via the transom, not the side and when a boat is underway, the eddy created behind a boat exaggerates this difference.

In a sailing Instructor's course, we used the boom and sling method shown in the video. Even with a group in moderate conditions, it was quite difficult. To make a point, I grabbed the boat hook, snagged the "victim", walked them to get back and got them onboard myself in under a minute. I got a scolding look, but the point was obvious: It may be cool to drop the sail and use boat mechanics to bring someone over the side, but typically, it's not the easiest way.

Of course the easiest rescue, is one in which the person never goes overboard in the first place and as others have said, noticing someone is no longer on board and finding them if they are not tethered is like finding a needle in a hay stack. Stay tethered.




(1) Sailors could learn much from the simple and fast techniques used in white water rescue, climbing and life guard training, rather than focus exclusively on time consuming, complex systems, simply because they are a part of a sailboat set up.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by nautical62

...I have however, jumped overboard underway with a line, rolled onto my back and hauled myself up to the transom (1) and gottenback on board without another person helping....

More power to you, but not all may be capable of that feat. We regularly go swimming when the boat is underway. Anything over about 3 knots and it becomes somewhere between difficult and impossible to pull yourself back to the boat along a line - and that's being rested and after jumping in deliberately.

As for pulling someone up the transom/scoop/step/platform - absolutely the simplest, easiest, and fastest method of retrieval under the right conditions. I'd guess that somewhere between 50 and 75% of our sailing that would be suitable. But I've also been in the water when the transom/step is pitching up and down and goes from 1'/30cm above my head to 1'/30cm below the water in the blink of an eye. If I were in the water, tired and cold I doubt I could get out of the way or get up the step without some serious (brain) damage. And I know I'm significantly stronger than my partner.

[hpeer]

This thread got me thinking about our retrieval concept. So the wife and I looked it over. For OUR boat, which has runners, a better idea would be to pull the runner aft to the gate with a line, then clip onto the MOB with the runner 4:1 puppy led to a winch. It’s a fast way to do it and brings the person up amidship. The last foot would be tough with an unresponsive person. But at least they would be out of the water.

I need to think about that last foot (or 2) a bit more. Need a way to shorten up the runner. Maybe I’ll just wack a couple of feet off, never understood why they were so long anyway. Barley room to secure them.

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

More power to you, but not all may be capable of that feat. We regularly go swimming when the boat is underway. Anything over about 3 knots and it becomes somewhere between difficult and impossible to pull yourself back to the boat along a line....

It sounds to me like you are saying if the person on board simply depowers the boat to under 2 knots, you could get back on board, without all the fancy mechanics and steps and difficulties involved in the video..... That's precisely my point.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by nautical62

It sounds to me like you are saying if the person on board simply depowers the boat to under 2 knots, you could get back on board, without all the fancy mechanics and steps and difficulties involved in the video..... That's precisely my point.

Possibly, some of the time, if I'm conscious, and if the sea state is suitable.

The easy methods are just that, easy. Throwing some random numbers at things:

50% of the time stop the boat near the MOB. MOB swims to the boat and climbs up the swim ladder.

30% of the time stop the boat and pull the MOB up the stern, possibly using the Lifesling or other similar hardware.

20% of the time? That's my focus in this discussion.

If I compare this to sailing I like to sail in benign conditions. Just enough breeze to move the boat at full speed, but conditions not too rough. Pleasant enough to kick back and enjoy everything, thrilling enough to get just a bit of the juices flowing. On a passage I use weather reports and passage planning to try and sail in those conditions as much as possible.

The argument here seems to be that I shouldn't bother to think about/learn how to reef because most of the time I like to sail in those conditions. What I'm interested in is those times when it's not so simple, and trying to be ready in advance - just as I am with weather/reefing/heavy weather planning. I hope I never have to use it but I sure want to have considered my options, under many different scenarios, in advance.

[nautical62]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Possibly, some of the time, if I'm conscious, and if the sea state is suitable.

The easy methods are just that, easy. Throwing some random numbers at things:

50% of the time stop the boat near the MOB. MOB swims to the boat and climbs up the swim ladder.

30% of the time stop the boat and pull the MOB up the stern, possibly using the Lifesling or other similar hardware.

20% of the time? That's my focus in this discussion.

If I compare this to sailing I like to sail in benign conditions. Just enough breeze to move the boat at full speed, but conditions not too rough. Pleasant enough to kick back and enjoy everything, thrilling enough to get just a bit of the juices flowing. On a passage I use weather reports and passage planning to try and sail in those conditions as much as possible.

The argument here seems to be that I shouldn't bother to think about/learn how to reef because most of the time I like to sail in those conditions. What I'm interested in is those times when it's not so simple, and trying to be ready in advance - just as I am with weather/reefing/heavy weather planning. I hope I never have to use it but I sure want to have considered my options, under many different scenarios, in advance.

No this is nothing like saying one shouldn't know how to reef.

This discussion is like talking about all the ways you could use the your mainsheet block to apply pressure on a tourniquet to prevent bleeding without mentioning direct pressure will do the trick most of the time.

The OP asks about how to deal with a MOB when there is only one other person on board. it's a valid question. The OP did not ask if your partner can execute a single, difficult and cumbersome technique when 99% of the time there is a much, much easier way to get a MOB back onboard.

My point is simple: Most of the time it will be much, much easier to get a person onboard by means other than this single, complex technique so why fixate on that?

In lifeguard training the emphasis isn't on how a young female lifeguard can over power a big panicky large man. (though there is value in knowing that) The emphasis is on how she can rescue him without having to rely on potentially dangerous hand to hand rescue techniques. I say same things with MOB. There's value in knowing how to perform some complex, and difficult mechanical way to get a person out of the water, but whether or not your partner can perform this single complex rescue technique isn't the important question.

The important question is can your partner do what is necessary to get you back on board by any means, including a much simpler means. 99% of the time it will be easier to get back on board a modern sailboat via the transom than rig the complex system in the video to hoist someone over the side, so ask whether or not you can can be brought back on board by the easiest means possible, not the most complex.

[nautical62]

In addition to having been certified as a ASA sailing instructor, I've been certified as a life guard training instructor, a white water canoe and kayak instructor and Wilderness First Responder. My point is simply that I think cruisers could learn much by focusing on whether simple rescue techniques and adaptability will save someone rather than focusing on whether or not the remaining person on board can perform a single, often taught, but very difficult rescue technique.

In the end it's not proficiency in a single complicated technique that matters, but whether or not the MOB ends up back onboard that matters. Any technique that gets someone back on board or better yet prevents someone from going over board is sufficient in my opinion. You don't get bonus points for using unnecessarily complex rescue techniques.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by nautical62

In addition to having been certified as a ASA sailing instructor, I've been certified as a life guard training instructor, a white water canoe and kayak instructor and Wilderness First Responder. My point is simply that I think cruisers could learn much by focusing on whether simple rescue techniques and adaptability will save someone rather than focusing on whether or not the remaining person on board can perform a single, often taught, but very difficult rescue technique.

In the end it's not proficiency in a single complicated technique that matters, but whether or not the MOB ends up back onboard that matters. Any technique that gets someone back on board or better yet prevents someone from going over board is sufficient in my opinion. You don't get bonus points for using unnecessarily complex rescue techniques.

Of course you should try the simple approach to solving the problem first. Having thought through and practiced a few of the various other approaches gives you are far greater chance of actually being able to execute them in a crisis situation.

It does no good to give readers a warm and fuzzy that one, simple approach will save your loved one.


credited to Albert Einstein
" Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler "

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by nautical62

In addition to having been certified as a ASA sailing instructor, I've been certified as a life guard training instructor, a white water canoe and kayak instructor and Wilderness First Responder. My point is simply that I think cruisers could learn much by focusing on whether simple rescue techniques and adaptability will save someone rather than focusing on whether or not the remaining person on board can perform a single, often taught, but very difficult rescue technique.

In the end it's not proficiency in a single complicated technique that matters, but whether or not the MOB ends up back onboard that matters. Any technique that gets someone back on board or better yet prevents someone from going over board is sufficient in my opinion. You don't get bonus points for using unnecessarily complex rescue techniques.

I agree 100%. It’s much better to practice and be well rehearsed in a proven simple technique which can be used in better than 90% of the probable MOB situations, rather than prepare for some complicated situation which will in all probability never happen onboard during a lifetime of cruising. A technique like the LifeSling method which can be performed by one person.

This is what I’ve been trying to point out. All I care about when I’m with my wife onboard regarding MOB, is that she remembers the simple steps involved in LifeSling technique and can execute them effectively in relatively benign conditions. This provides me with the best chance of survival if I go over the side. Any procedure that’s more complicated will just confuse the situation when the rescue person is pumped with adrenaline.

All actions need to be fast and automatic.

1. Deploy lifesling
2. Turn, tack and backwind the jib
3. Keep eye on the MOB (probably me)
4. Circle the MOB under sail or motor
5. Stall the boat when the MOB has the float.

This is the best I can hope for, any procedure more complicated just won’t happen.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Paul L

It does no good to give readers a warm and fuzzy that one, simple approach will save your loved one.


credited to Albert Einstein
" Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler "

I’d much rather rely on one simple proven technique that’ll work in better than 90% of real-world MOB situations, than some 25 step cluster flunk, complicated maneuver people can’t even remember, that’ll in all likelyhood... never be needed during a lifetime of cruising.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’d much rather rely on one simple proven technique that’ll work in better than 90% of real-world MOB situations, than some 25 step cluster flunk, complicated maneuver people can’t even remember, that’ll in all likelyhood... never be needed during a lifetime of cruising.

Pretty sure of your 90% aren't you. For my cruising I don't believe it is likely at all that we will have a true MOB in benign inshore conditions. So the 90% is just a BS number for our type cruising. Might be good for yours, but no need to try and foist it on others.

Since most all of us well understand the simplistic approach where the MOB near enough jumps back in the boat over the swimstep, it is more interesting to better understand the more difficult situations.