MOB for Couples

[boom23]

It is clear that this is no "one size fits all" situation. I would like to suggest that we can break this topic down to more manageable portions:

1. How to stay on board
2. Person on board: what to do when MOB situation happens
3. Person in the water: how to increase your survival chances (before and after the fact preparations)
4. How to bring MOB back on board

After all input, maybe someone can condense them to a simple set of instructions.

This is just a suggestion. This is a great topic and we should explore it!

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by boom23

It is clear that this is no "one size fits all" situation. I would like to suggest that we can break this topic down to more manageable portions:

1. How to stay on board
2. Person on board: what to do when MOB situation happens
3. Person in the water: how to increase your survival chances (before and after the fact preparations)
4. How to bring MOB back on board

After all input, maybe someone can condense them to a simple set of instructions.

This is just a suggestion. This is a great topic and we should explore it!

Working on it, will post later tonight

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Since 99.9+% of boats don't go far offshore, it is very likely that an MOB will not occur offshore. Far more MOBs occur from the dock and between a tied up boat and the dock or tender. So with Kenos logic we should just focus on these and ignore the offshore MOBs because it won't happen to most people. Just bogus logic.

Once again, it appears you have absolutely nothing constructive to add to this discussion.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Franziska

5miles offshore or less can be just as nasty if you are in the wrong spot and along an unsheltered stretch of coast.
Actually it's worse, because you have less time to get on top of the situation.

Certainly true. MOB can occur anywhere and bad conditions can occur anywhere.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Once again, it appears you have absolutely nothing constructive to add to this discussion.

Just refuting your focus on the meaningless 90% number you keep throwing out and insisting that we should all ignore non-benign conditions.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

You keep posting that video to substantiate your "cred." And I give you all the props. But to reinforce what "all" the other posters are saying, what is your mob plan for conditions like that? Because—reading between the lines—it seems like you MOB plan for shirty conditions is "Don't fall off," which I recall you poo-pooing earlier.

And despite whatever snark may have creeped into my tone, I am actually interested. You are an experienced cruiser, have a big perhaps unwieldy boat, do sail in less than optimal conditions double-handed where perhaps the water isn't the warmest. You have a brain fart, step over the combing to snag an errant doohickey and bang, over you go. Now what?

Originally Posted by Franziska

5miles offshore or less can be just as nasty if you are in the wrong spot and along an unsheltered stretch of coast.
Actually it's worse, because you have less time to get on top of the situation.

Originally Posted by boom23

It is clear that this is no "one size fits all" situation. I would like to suggest that we can break this topic down to more manageable portions:

1. How to stay on board
2. Person on board: what to do when MOB situation happens
3. Person in the water: how to increase your survival chances (before and after the fact preparations)
4. How to bring MOB back on board

After all input, maybe someone can condense them to a simple set of instructions.

This is just a suggestion. This is a great topic and we should explore it!

Here’s my thoughts on the subject presented....

Basically, as I’ve previously posted, we keep the MOB rescue procedure simple and easy to remember. We also have a block and tackle option with the boom and main sheet along with the topping lift halyard if necessary, but our primary objectives are staying aboard, which we do via the following methods.

Active Defense
Active Avoidance

1. Active Defense

A. Ocean Rodeo dry suits. We’ve been using them for three years whenever the weather pipes up and always at night. Under these are worn a thermal one piece along with Gill neoprene high traction booties and gloves for hands and feet. This way if one of us goes over, we can last 12-24 hours in the cold water, allowing an extended time period to find and rescue the MOB.

B. Inflatable life jackets with integral harness and crotch straps with tethers and oversized clips. Personal EPIRB, light and whistle.

C. Jacklines run centerline bow to stern direct to all working areas.

D. Hydraulic controls for all sails from the helm, negating the need to go forward in the first place.

E. Cutter rigged vessel for easy reefing/furling options.

F. RIB with 40hp outboard on davits which can double as a tow boat or to fetch a MOB where the mothership can’t go. Yes, we know of several instances when people drowned because they washed into shallow water where the mothership couldn’t go. Please don’t try it with a small putt putt or oars.

G. LifeSling

H. Sugar scoop boarding option. The only type boat we’ve owned because it offers an easy boarding option.

2. Active Avoidance

A. Maintain Two in the center cockpit at all times, yes the off-watch person sleeps in the cockpit wearing a very warm drysuit, or we take on two extra crew for passages. ALWAYS TWO PEOPLE.

B. Never leave the cockpit without a second person watching.

C. KVH V3ip SAT Satellite Broadband internet and phone service on each boat along with a subscription to four weather services including: PredictWind offshore, Weather4D pro, Pocket gribs and local forecast services. We work very hard to constanty monitor weather and avoid the bad stuff. https://www.kvh.com/v3ip

D. We sail on boats large enough to easily have 200 mile days with tankage to accomodate enough fuel to motor at speeds capable of 200 mile days if the need arises.

Why do I post our foul weather video? Because several folks on this forum like to build themselves up by pestering me with derogatory remarks regarding our sailing experience and opinions by using terms like “only inshore” etc.; so I like to remind them and others... we sail in all kinds of weather in all sorts of places.

Ken

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1CGfdNayaeo

[Dsanduril]

The snark in me wants to ask, why bother to sail. With the broadband connection and automated sails you could pilot from the couch of your apartment and have zero risk of MOB.

But seriously, this plan fails to address the key question of what boat handling the singlehanded sailor does to find and get back to the MOB. You yourself have said you had a completely unexpected MOB, so it does happen even to the best of us. What are the techniques for finding your mate? Even with all the easy sailhanding gear it will be impossible (my opinion) for a singlehanded sailor to keep his/her eyes continuously on the MOB. So how do you find them and get back to them so they can board at the sugar scoop?

[Franziska]

I guess a handheld/personal AIS transmitter on each crew combined with a display and loud alarm at the helm& Epirb might help best.
This AIS transmitter should be ideally combined with a separately activated Epirb style transmitter
Try with the AIS first, then launch the Epirb a bit later.

Handheld radio is very helpful too.

Further thought, might be helpful to have some sort of a flag/flashing light on a self inflating buoy in each one's pocket too to be better detectable at close range in waves. Or a pouch of sea dye.

On Lady Rover we would probably try to:

Try to tack (or jibe, pending on conditions) immediately.
Drop a fender on a long float line overboard.
Try to stay to windward of POB and slowly return along the GPS track under consideration of adding drift.
If person over board is uninjured, pass them to windward and luff up.
Than drift towards them so that they can grab the float line.
Pull them in.
As we have not very big engines, we could only use them when it's not too windy.

Why does no-one sell a combination of Epirb+AIS+VHF in one small unit?
With switches to trigger them one after the other? (If I go overboard in not to terrible conditions I might not want to trigger an Epirb style alarm right away, if I feel my crew has a good chance to recover me.)
That would be the ideal equipment for each crew member to have.
Or is this available already?

[gamayun]

Doesn't everyone always carry a VHF on their PFDs? Even far offshore, I'd be using the radio for immediate comms with the boat. That squawk in the middle of the night would likely raise the dead! Of course, this presumes you are conscious and not too many miles separated before you can get hands on the radio. Also, make sure you have a good strobe on the PFD. I've been amazed at the power of a good strobe light on the water.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

The snark in me wants to ask, why bother to sail. With the broadband connection and automated sails you could pilot from the couch of your apartment and have zero risk of MOB.

But seriously, this plan fails to address the key question of what boat handling the singlehanded sailor does to find and get back to the MOB. You yourself have said you had a completely unexpected MOB, so it does happen even to the best of us. What are the techniques for finding your mate? Even with all the easy sailhanding gear it will be impossible (my opinion) for a singlehanded sailor to keep his/her eyes continuously on the MOB. So how do you find them and get back to them so they can board at the sugar scoop?

Just like the other guy... nothing constructive offered up by you, just snarky jabs. Looks like I wasted over an hour coming up with solutions that just might help save your life some day.

Getting tired of wasting my time on blind eyes like yours and others, maybe it’s time to figure it out for yourselves, there’s a lot there if you choose to digest and understand it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Doesn't everyone always carry a VHF on their PFDs? Even far offshore, I'd be using the radio for immediate comms with the boat. That squawk in the middle of the night would likely raise the dead! Of course, this presumes you are conscious and not too many miles separated before you can get hands on the radio. Also, make sure you have a good strobe on the PFD. I've been amazed at the power of a good strobe light on the water.

I agree fully with the need for it, but I do not indeed carry a VHF on my life vest. Way too bulky. Would be great if someone would make a really light thin emergency one, with DSC, and could only have one or channels.


What I do have is an AIS MOB beacon. This is a total game-changer for finding the victim, just about eliminating one of the three main challenges of saving an MOB. I had my crew bring their own last summer; this year maybe I'll buy a second one so that everyone on watch can have one.



The newer ones with DSC are better than the early-adopter one I have.



Note that solving the problem of how to FIND the victim, is not a panacea. You still have to get him back on board, and sailors die fairly often while even full crews struggle with this problem. The challenge of getting the victim back on board should not be underestimated, and how to do it when the victim is debilitated is a very different one.


Most MOB practice is aimed at the problem of FINDING the victim. Rescuing fenders and hats and such. That kind of practice is not made obsolete by the existence of MOB beacons -- someone might go over without one. But surely more emphasis should be placed on practicing getting people back on board. It's harder than it looks, and people die while those on board are discovering that it can be much harder than it looks. The only way to overcome that is learning and practice.




The other issue I don't think enough attention is paid to, is what happens if someone goes over while clipped on. This can be a death sentence, and lots of sailors die this way. I keep a rescue knife in my life jacket, but I actually kind of doubt that I would be capable of finding it and cutting myself free, if I were being dragged alongside at 10 knots with water being forced down my throat. This is something which needs more work.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

"Don't fall off!" is not a viable plan for MOB recovery, but seems to be often repeated here on CF.

I appreciate the post. I am going to take actual notes of all the precautions you take when the weather is crap and hopefully implement some of them. But don't get all self-righteous about "wasting your time" giving us a post that basically says "don't fall off" when you yourself think so poorly of that strategy.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

I appreciate the post. I am going to take actual notes of all the precautions you take when the weather is crap and hopefully implement some of them. But don't get all self-righteous about "wasting your time" giving us a post that basically says "don't fall off" when you yourself think so poorly of that strategy.

You say you appreciate my effort, then follow it up with another rude comment. Nice.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You say you appreciate my effort, then follow it up with another rude comment. I’m done, figure it out youself from now on.

Quite the definition of rude there. Nothing I wouldn't say to someone in person so I'm good with it.

[Franziska]

Hey guys. Where's the point in this.
Everybody should share their know how.
Let's cut the "I have the holy grail of knowledge" and show a bit of respect to other opinions.
Just ditch the picking on each other.

Please. Thank you!

The point that most accidents happen in calm conditions is noted but should not stop us thinking a bit on rough weather too.

Back to my question regarding a handheld combination of AIS+Personal Beacon (Epirb style)+VHF+GPS.
In today's technology it should be possible to create this in a small enough waterproof package to be carried on the person.

Anyone knows if that full combination exists? I'd get several if it exists.
Is there a way to put this into a crowd sourced project?
Unfortunately I do not have electronics know how to start this. Maybe someone has? Would think that would sell great.