No Wind, Sails Still Up?

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Seriously, how can you tell? If the sail is up and they are motoring, they are sailing very close to the wind - Naturally, if it is dead calm - no problem to be able to tell. But some sailors also do this when there is wind - how then?

If the wind is light, they don't have their head sail up, and the boat is moving along at a good clip even though they are headed into the wind; I figure they are motoring (especially if I can see water or exhaust coming out of the stern).

If they have their sails up and they are full I assume they are sailing (doesn't matter if the engine is on).

If I can not tell and their sails are up I assume they are sailing. If the sails are down and they moving I assume they are motoring.

When in total doubt I maintain a responsibility to avoid a collision or an action that puts EITHER of us at risk and don't play the Colregs sea lawyer about it.

BTW - what do you cone guys do when it is flying from a spreader you can not see?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

If the wind is light, they don't have their head sail up, and the boat is moving along at a good clip even though they are headed into the wind; I figure they are motoring (especially if I can see water or exhaust coming out of the stern).

If they have their sails up and they are full I assume they are sailing (doesn't matter if the engine is on).

If I can not tell and their sails are up I assume they are sailing. If the sails are down and they moving I assume they are motoring.

When in total doubt I maintain a responsibility to avoid a collision or an action that puts EITHER of us at risk and don't play the Colregs sea lawyer about it.

BTW - what do you cone guys do when it is flying from a spreader you can not see?

If sails are up and the engine is on, then they are a power vessel like any other. Maintaining responsibility to avoid a collision or an action that puts either boat at risk is in fact part of the Colregs 'sea lawyer' regs.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I almost always use mine.

well what is the point of that?

[simonpickard]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

I have flogged my mainsail in calms for 35,000 miles with no damage.

Good to know, so it doesn't matter if we have it flapping around a little. But you do still always have the main up regardless?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

well what is the point of that?

If you saw were he sails, then you would understand why it is helpful to tell others that you are motoring or sailing. Meeting another yacht isn't a problem. Meeting a couple of 40 yacht fleets racing between the commercial traffic in the Solent can be challenging.

SOLENT AIS SHIP POSITIONS

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Pete7

If you saw were he sails, then you would understand why it is helpful to tell others that you are motoring or sailing. Meeting another yacht isn't a problem. Meeting a couple of 40 yacht fleets racing between the commercial traffic in the Solent can be challenging.

SOLENT AIS SHIP POSITIONS

doesn't answer why "almost" always follows the rules as he posted, just saying

[roverhi]

Always leave the main up, sheeted in hard, when I'm forced to power. Sail helps to stop the boat from rolling. With the self generated wind from motoring, the sail doesn't flog much. Curiously, found reefing down to the third reef is the best sail configuration for powering as the sail doesn't flog at all yet still dampens the roll. Discovered that when forced to motor back to SF from 200 miles out to make repairs. Wanted to cut the the healing angle down as much as possible in light wind and had the time to experiment with a number of different sail combinations. Westsail used to hoist a very light material storm trivsail with their extremely large logo emblazoned on it at boat shows. We used to denigrate them for their light air storm trisail. After a couple of passages through the doldrums, think such a sail wouldn't be a bad idea for powering in lumpy seas.

It's also not a bad idea to have the main up just in case the Iron Genoa goes south.

[Exile]

And don't forget -- having some sail up also lets everyone else know that you are a SAILBOAT!

[Suijin]

The point of motoring with your sail up depends on the circumstances. I pretty much never raise my sail in advance of setting out if I expect, due to weather and the route, to *never* have it up during the trip. I do however put it up if the forecast calls for better sailing weather, and if the wind dies on me I *leave* it up if I have a reasonable expectation of it returning. Like Mark said it's hard to damage your main from flogging, while your jib is a different story.

In other words I do what basically makes sense and don't think too much about it either way. It's either a judgement call or a convenience call.

[JPA Cate]

Sailorboy1,

One doesn't fly it from the spreader, but in the forward part of the rigging, where it is more visible. I saw one, once, in use while we were on the West Coast of USA, and I know a guy who has one on his 40 footer. That's a different one for each 15 yrs.

I agree, though, that if people would use them, it would clarify the situation, and hence, is a courtesy.

General ignorance of the colregs, I suspect, is more prevalent outside Europe, and may be almost non-existant in other areas. It's a big ol' world.

Ann

[Dave852]

Just last week I rolled my jib out to give the lady's on the front deck a shady spot. But almost always the sails are going to increase my speed. If I have 3-5 true knots from somewhere behind the beam I can not do much with it from a sailing perspective but if I turn on one motor I can turn that into 6-7 knots of apparent wind forward of the beam and now my sails are powered up increasing my speed and so increasing my apparent wind and so it goes.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Exile

And don't forget -- having some sail up also lets everyone else know that you are a SAILBOAT!

Uuuuh - actually no. When you have your engine on and are using it for propulsion of any kind - you are not a sailboat. You are an engine driven vessel and will rightfully be regarded as such within the context of the colregs.

Not flying one can have some serious consequences when faced with (as Pete7 posted) heavy traffic.

I realize that in US waters, it receives almost no attention (and is rarely, if ever, enforced), but in European waters, you better have one and be flying it. Many national coast guards will stop and ticket you for not doing so.

A couple of years ago I was sailing in Swedish waters and hit an area with no wind (I was behind an island). Being lazy, I started my engine and sailed along with my sails up (I knew I would come out from behind the lee of the island in less than 10 minutes). A Swedish coast guard cutter happen to round the island and made a beeline for me. I realized that I'd been too lazy to hoist the triangle, got it out and hoisted it. As soon as I did that, the cutter turned away.

I do know sailors who have gotten a fine for sailing in German waters without flying it.

Ignorance of, and not observing the colregs, is no excuse if you hit someone (or get hit). While blame is almost always apportioned to some extent between two colliding vessels, running on your engine with your sails up will means that YOU will receive the greatest share of the blame - because you were misrepresenting yourself.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Exile

If sails are up and the engine is on, then they are a power vessel like any other. Maintaining responsibility to avoid a collision or an action that puts either boat at risk is in fact part of the Colregs 'sea lawyer' regs.

Yes, well aware, thanks (post #17). Just having a bit of fun.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Exile

If sails are up and the engine is on, then they are a power vessel like any other. Maintaining responsibility to avoid a collision or an action that puts either boat at risk is in fact part of the Colregs 'sea lawyer' regs.

Ah not quite, the Coil Regs don't talk about engine on, they talk about a vessel operating mechanical propulsion, it could be in neutral generating electrickery

But I absolutely agree that care and prudence is better than lawyers.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Factor

Ah not quite, the Coil Regs don't talk about engine on, they talk about a vessel operating mechanical propulsion, it could be in neutral generating electrickery



But I absolutely agree that care and prudence is better than lawyers.

You might have a gander at Rule 19, the term engine is also used ( as in " have her engines ready " )

I don't remember ever seeing " operating mechanical propulsion" ) there are copious references to a " power driven vessel " and the term "propelling machinery " is used in the definition as is " propelled by machinery "

Dave


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