Paul's 1st century ship

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by David B

Very interesting - will try to find a copy at a decent price (just looked - AUD75 for a paperback!).

That's a steep price. I read it in a library, probably a university one. From memory, some valuable chunks of it are available on Google Books.

Patai is a, how-to-say, 'flawed work'. Written by a bloke who became obsessed with the subject.

Some parts of it, including his discussion of the nomenclature of some parts of the ship (rigging, rig, hull, etc) are only found in Patai.

Beresford's book is the 'better' work. Beresford discusses most every aspect (celestial nav, seasons, wind roses, and big mobs more).

I appreciate Beresford's objective, academic approach. Being a bit of an obsessive (about boats, sailing, safe navigation, good maintenance etc), I also enjoy Patai.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

A lot of anachronism here. The Battle of Actium "shifted intellectual endeavours to Istanbul"? Really? Constantinople wasn't called Istanbul until after the Ottoman conquest in the 15thC, and wasn't even founded as a Roman capital until 324. The Battle of Actium was in 31AD, almost 200 years before there was any Constantinople for anyone to go to.

The anachronism is only in the name if the city.
He should have written Byzantion (later Constantinople) and we will probably be happy...

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by meirriba

The anachronism is only in the name if the city.
He should have written Byzantion (later Constantinople) and we will probably be happy...

I wouldn’t say that the battle of Actium [31 BCE] was instrumental in shifting intellectual endeavours to Istanbul [Constantinople].
Instead, I’s suggest that it was more likely* the fall of Rome, to the barbarian Odoacer, in 476, that signaled the handing of the torch, to Constantinople [Byzantium was the ancient site, upon which Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire was built].

* If one must pick a single event, and date.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by meirriba

The anachronism is only in the name if the city.
He should have written Byzantion (later Constantinople) and we will probably be happy...

I will not be happy. Byzantium was a backwater village at the time of the Battle of Actium, and I guess that not one single intellectual moved there as a result of the battle. Byzantium/Constantinople became a world capital only 350 years later and started to elipse Rome only 500 years later. The anachronism is really severe.

Originally Posted by GordMay

I wouldn’t say that the battle of Actium [31 BCE] was instrumental in shifting intellectual endeavours to Istanbul [Constantinople].
Instead, I’s suggest that it was more likely* the fall of Rome, to the barbarian Odoacer, in 476, that signaled the handing of the torch, to Constantinople [Byzantium was the ancient site, upon which Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire was built].

* If one must pick a single event, and date.

And that is the correct story, having nothing whatsoever to do with Actium.



Actium on the contrary set the stage for the founding of the Roman Empire, which replaced the Republic, bringing in a few centuries of Rome's greatest glory. The height of Roman power was still ahead in 31BC. Constantinople gained importance as the Western Empire began to be destroyed by barbarians. 476 is often mentioned as the concrete moment of the fall of the Western Empire, as that is when the last emperor was deposed and the imperial attributes were sent to Constantinople, but it was a long process, going on for more than century. The classic text of course is Gibbons.


For extra points, where was the "torch passed" to when the Eastern Empire fell in 1453? Anyone know without googling it?

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I wouldn’t say that the battle of Actium [31 BCE] was instrumental in shifting intellectual endeavours to Istanbul [Constantinople].
Instead, I’s suggest that it was more likely* the fall of Rome, to the barbarian Odoacer, in 476, that signaled the handing of the torch, to Constantinople [Byzantium was the ancient site, upon which Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire was built].

* If one must pick a single event, and date.

I totally agree.
By the way, I am now in Preveza (Greece), one mile across the water from Aktion, ancient Actium.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... For extra points, where was the "torch passed" to when the Eastern Empire fell in 1453? Anyone know without googling it?

In a sense, the centre of intellectual leadership didn't move, it just changed hands.
When the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Empire, the Turks renamed the city [of Constantinople] Istanbul.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

For extra points, where was the "torch passed" to when the Eastern Empire fell in 1453? Anyone know without googling it?

That is a great question! I can think of a few possible answers. At this point, the Renaissance was picking up steam in various parts of Europe to various extents. There are several candidates one may consider, but I think two of the top contenders would have to include Florence and Venice.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

In a sense, the centre of intellectual leadership didn't move, it just changed hands.
When the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Empire, the Turks renamed the city [of Constantinople] Istanbul.

Very good guess, and indeed Mehmet thereafter attempted to style himself as the Emperor of Rome (which didn't take, however, so he has been known through history as "Mehmet the Conqueror").


However, when Constantinople fell, most of the relics and standards and imperial seals as well as part of the treasury were transferred to -- Moscow. Ivan III (aka Ivan the Great), the Grand Prince of Moscow, was married to Sofia Paleologa, niece of the last Byzantine emperor and daughter of the man who would have succeeded Constantine Paeleologos to the Byzantine throne. The double-headed Byzantine eagle was adopted as the emblem of the Muscovite state, and Ivan, at Sophia's behest, began to style himself as the Caesar -- Tsar. So became Russia's first Tsar. Moscow is still called "The Third Rome" by its residents.



Constantinople was the center of the Orthodox faith and in fact the center of Christianity for much of its remarkable 1200+ year history, and so transfer of the attributes to Moscow, which was second in importance to Constantinople for the Orthodox faith was somewhat logical.



Further reading: The magnificent cycle of books by John Julius Norwich, or for the short version, his one-volume "Short History of Byzantium."

[Motorsailer4me]

Ancient mariner here. I remember Paul and his boat. He was a fixture at the Byzantium Yacht Club.

[capn_billl]

The lighthouse at Alexandria indicates to me, somebody was crossing the Med at the time, and relying on the light for navigation at least part of the journey.

Add to this the Antikythera mechanism that indicates not only cross sea voyages were possible, but that they were very good at it.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Motorsailer4me

Ancient mariner here. I remember Paul and his boat. He was a fixture at the Byzantium Yacht Club.

Indeed. Everyone talks about Paul's letters (e.g. Romans, Corinthians-known for the leather?, Galatians, etc.) but very few talk about his post cards! There might still be a few on the Byzantium Yacht Club's bulletin board.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Very good guess, and indeed Mehmet thereafter attempted to style himself as the Emperor of Rome (which didn't take, however, so he has been known through history as "Mehmet the Conqueror").

However, when Constantinople fell, most of the relics and standards and imperial seals as well as part of the treasury were transferred to -- Moscow. Ivan III (aka Ivan the Great), the Grand Prince of Moscow, was married to Sofia Paleologa, niece of the last Byzantine emperor and daughter of the man who would have succeeded Constantine Paeleologos to the Byzantine throne. The double-headed Byzantine eagle was adopted as the emblem of the Muscovite state, and Ivan, at Sophia's behest, began to style himself as the Caesar -- Tsar. So became Russia's first Tsar. Moscow is still called "The Third Rome" by its residents.

Constantinople was the center of the Orthodox faith and in fact the center of Christianity for much of its remarkable 1200+ year history, and so transfer of the attributes to Moscow, which was second in importance to Constantinople for the Orthodox faith was somewhat logical.

Further reading: The magnificent cycle of books by John Julius Norwich, or for the short version, his one-volume "Short History of Byzantium."

Very interesting bit of history, and thanks for posting that!