Positioning spinnaker guys?

[Bigjim]

I bought my first spinnaker this year. I flew it for the first time over memorial day. I have never flown a spinnaker myself although I have been on boats that did.

So, I know the basic concepts but have been researching best practices. One of the things that confuses me is the placement of the guy blocks.

I have a 35' Columbia and first flew the spinnaker with sheets only. It was a very light wind day: 3-5 knots. I could see instantly that I needed guys to help control the pole.

Most of the diagrams recommend placing the guy blocks around midship or slightly behind that point (shown in RED below). That doesn't seem logical to me. I'm thinking of placing my on the toe rail near or just behind the forward shroud (shown in BLUE below). This would place the block almost directly below the furthest aft position the spinnaker pole can be used. But it would give a better angle for the guy when the pole moves forward toward the forestay.

The suggested position shown in RED offers a wide angle at all positions of the pole, which would also allow a wider play in the pole tip. By moving the block forward it allows you to control the pole better and offers less opportunity to misbehave.

So what am I missing? What's the error in my thinking?

[wholybee]

I position the afterguy at the point where the beam is widest, or near or just behind the mast. The guy doesn't just hold the pole down, but also from moving forward. So you don't want it forward of the mast. A foreguy from the bow holds it from moving aft, and a topping lift holds it up. The three guys should intersect at roughly (maybe very roughly) equal angles so that the pole cannot move.

Referring to your pictures, the pole should never be that far aft. The furthest aft should be about 45 degrees.

Also, that is a lot of lines. I have seen boats that use a snatch block at the rail, and snatch the lazy sheet to use it as a guy.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

I bought my first spinnaker this year. I flew it for the first time over memorial day. I have never flown a spinnaker myself although I have been on boats that did.

So, I know the basic concepts but have been researching best practices. One of the things that confuses me is the placement of the guy blocks.

I have a 35' Columbia and first flew the spinnaker with sheets only. It was a very light wind day: 3-5 knots. I could see instantly that I needed guys to help control the pole.

Most of the diagrams recommend placing the guy blocks around midship or slightly behind that point (shown in RED below). That doesn't seem logical to me. I'm thinking of placing my on the toe rail near or just behind the forward shroud (shown in BLUE below). This would place the block almost directly below the furthest aft position the spinnaker pole can be used. But it would give a better angle for the guy when the pole moves forward toward the forestay.

The suggested position shown in RED offers a wide angle at all positions of the pole, which would also allow a wider play in the pole tip. By moving the block forward it allows you to control the pole better and offers less opportunity to misbehave.

So what am I missing? What's the error in my thinking?

Controlling the spinnaker pole requires three lines: guy (After guy), downhaul (Foreguy), and Pole lift. When all three lines are taut and have good angles the pole is stable and cannot move very much. You have full control on the pole.

The after guy location is critical, as you note. With the pole pulled back (to right angles to the boat) you need the block in an aft location to keep a good angle on the after guy. However, when the pole is eased forward, for reaching, you need the block at the widest part of the boat, which may be farther forward. (Keep in mind that the other two control lines are essential to stabilize the pole). Finding a compromise between these two positions may be a challenge and the shape of the boat may dictate where you finally position that block. It will be a compromise. In the old days people put a reaching strut horizontally on the mast perpendicular to the centerline and ran the Afterguy through the end of that strut, giving a better angle when hard reaching.

Now days most cruisers dispense with all of that and use asymmetrical spinnakers which normally do not use a pole or Afterguy or Foreguy or Pole lift.

We carry both types of spinnakers and can use either, but when it's hot and you are rigging for a spinnaker, the fewer lines you have to lead, to say nothing of the pole itself, makes the asym more attractive. However, the use of a symmetrical spinnaker with a pole provides a wider range of wind angles and points of sail in which you can get good drive out of the kite.

[StuM]

Listen to wingsail!
Your diagram is missing the two other necessary control lines for the pole.


You use the lines you show to control how far forward/aft the pole is, but it does little or nothing to control its height, for that you use two other lines.

Around here, we call them the pole uphaul and downhaul rather than foreguy and pole lift, I find that more descriptive, and less likely to cause confusion than two guys, when teaching people to use a spinnaker



(And when DDW, the pole should be a lot more than 45° - it is frequently position as far back as it can go without touching the shrouds).

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I position the afterguy at the point where the beam is widest, or near or just behind the mast. The guy doesn't just hold the pole down, but also from moving forward. So you don't want it forward of the mast. A foreguy from the bow holds it from moving aft, and a topping lift holds it up. The three guys should intersect at roughly (maybe very roughly) equal angles so that the pole cannot move.

Referring to your pictures, the pole should never be that far aft. The furthest aft should be about 45 degrees.

Also, that is a lot of lines. I have seen boats that use a snatch block at the rail, and snatch the lazy sheet to use it as a guy.

The diagram is not accurate just for discussion. I never let the pole touch any stay. Moving the block back a few feet makes sense. Thanks

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Controlling the spinnaker pole requires three lines: guy (After guy), downhaul (Foreguy), and Pole lift. When all three lines are taut and have good angles the pole is stable and cannot move very much. You have full control on the pole.

The after guy location is critical, as you note. With the pole pulled back (to right angles to the boat) you need the block in an aft location to keep a good angle on the after guy. However, when the pole is eased forward, for reaching, you need the block at the widest part of the boat, which may be farther forward. (Keep in mind that the other two control lines are essential to stabilize the pole). Finding a compromise between these two positions may be a challenge and the shape of the boat may dictate where you finally position that block. It will be a compromise. In the old days people put a reaching strut horizontally on the mast perpendicular to the centerline and ran the Afterguy through the end of that strut, giving a better angle when hard reaching.

Now days most cruisers dispense with all of that and use asymmetrical spinnakers which normally do not use a pole or Afterguy or Foreguy or Pole lift.

We carry both types of spinnakers and can use either, but when it's hot and you are rigging for a spinnaker, the fewer lines you have to lead, to say nothing of the pole itself, makes the asym more attractive. However, the use of a symmetrical spinnaker with a pole provides a wider range of wind angles and points of sail in which you can get good drive out of the kite.

My old boat had a standing block on the foredeck for the downhaul or foreguy. My current boat has nothing like that. So, I'll have to figure something else out.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

My old boat had a standing block on the foredeck for the downhaul or foreguy. My current boat has nothing like that. So, I'll have to figure something else out.

A block at the base of the mast is not uncommon

[johnn33]

I hope you will find how to rig and sail and, if you are keen, race any offshore yacht either short handed or fully crewed here in Stuart Quarrie's book

https://www.kobo.com/us/en/ebook/the...-crew-s-manual
His navigating books are even better...

John

[johnn33]

Also, he ran Cowes Week for years
John

[psk125]

We position our snatch blocks on the rails so that the guys don't chafe on the shrouds. Otherwise, you need a jockey pole to hold them off, and jockey poles can be dangerous because of the compression loads. If the guy runs against the shrouds, having the snatch block further aft, at the widest point of the boat, won't make any difference - the guy is chafing against the shroud, and that's as "wide" as you're going to get. While the snatch blocks can serve like dinghy guy hooks in lighter conditions, a pole downhaul (also known as a foreguy) is needed as well on a boat this big.

[Capt Ricky]

wingssail nailed it.

The deck block for the foreguy typically is in the middle of the foredeck. A position near the the jib tack might work also, provided the foreguy doesn't interfere with the lifelines too much.

The reaching strut becomes critical with the pole forward, especially if the stern is narrow (think IOR designs). I never saw a reaching strut stayed to my satisfaction. Most times it was tied to a shroud. I would want triangulated stay lines: fore/aft on the toe rail and up above on the mast somewhere. That's a lot of claptrap. Hence the popularity of the Asym.

Once I say a heavily loaded reaching strut become untied and nearly knock a crewmember unconscious.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Capt Ricky

...The reaching strut becomes critical with the pole forward, especially if the stern is narrow (think IOR designs). I never saw a reaching strut stayed to my satisfaction. Most times it was tied to a shroud. I would want triangulated stay lines: fore/aft on the toe rail and up above on the mast somewhere. That's a lot of claptrap. Hence the popularity of the Asym.

Once I say a heavily loaded reaching strut become untied and nearly knock a crewmember unconscious.

We dispensed with the reaching strut 30 years ago. The after guys now go forward through a stand-up block on the deck near the rail, aft of the shrouds, directly to the pole tip. The loaded guy never touches the shrouds on our boat even with the pole all the way forward due to the narrow shroud base. Other boats may requires a slightly different location for these blocks.

We have an IOR design.