Rogue Wave

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Auklet

This occurs when multiple independent wave sets are traveling in the same direction but at different speeds and with different amplitudes.

Actually no, in my schema above that would be level 2. This certainly happens but is not what level 4 refers to.

There is an actual quantum mechanic mechanism over a single wave field where one wave takes energy from surrounding waves.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Actually no, in my schema above that would be level 2. This certainly happens but is not what level 4 refers to.

There is an actual quantum mechanic mechanism over a single wave field where one wave takes energy from surrounding waves.

I dunno. In my “experience” quantum mechanics is about particles, where they are and when in the subatomic milieu.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by RainDog

I do not think this is the case. First, the existence of "Rogue Waves" was just recently established. I believe the first scientific proof was from a north sea platform in 1995:

This report establishes the truth of persistent accounts of “gigantic” wave heights which had long been doubted. Oceanographers and others questioned estimates by seafarers as to the height of waves they encountered. Read, for example, in Shackleton’s Endurance an account of a gigantic wave he encountered during his open boat sail from Elephant Island to South Georgia Island. This report really provides no information on “rogueness” unless the authors have the relative directions of combining waves, which I doubt.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Auklet

I dunno. In my “experience” quantum mechanics is about particles, where they are and when in the subatomic milieu.

hmmmm . . . . you might read up on "wave/particle duality", it is a pretty key concept in quantum mechanics

And there are papers you can find on quantum wave energy transfer, mostly about light, but there are a couple of investigation (physics department of US Naval academy has been involved) into its application in water.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

hmmmm . . . . you might read up on "wave/particle duality", it is a pretty key concept in quantum mechanics

And there are papers you can find on quantum wave energy transfer, mostly about light, but there are a couple of investigation (physics department of US Naval academy has been involved) into its application in water.

Getting a little bit out of my range—not to be obtuse—but wave/particle duality in my experience refers specifically to light (e.g., sunlight); that is, the particle-like characteristics of photons (= packets of electromagnetic energy) propagated in a wave-like manner, etc. So, not exactly quantum mechanics in that we are not talking subatomic particles there.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Getting a little bit out of my range—not to be obtuse—but wave/particle duality in my experience refers specifically to light (e.g., sunlight); that is, the particle-like characteristics of photons (= packets of electromagnetic energy) propagated in a wave-like manner, etc. So, not exactly quantum mechanics in that we are not talking subatomic particles there.

"Wave–particle duality is the concept in quantum mechanics that every particle or quantum entity may be described as either a particle or a wave. It expresses the inability of the classical concepts "particle" or "wave" to fully describe the behaviour of quantum-scale objects."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E...rticle_duality

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

"Wave–particle duality is the concept in quantum mechanics that every particle or quantum entity may be described as either a particle or a wave. It expresses the inability of the classical concepts "particle" or "wave" to fully describe the behaviour of quantum-scale objects."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave%E...rticle_duality

I don’t think I’m speaking Greek or Russian here. We are not talking in the context of quantum-scale objects. So, I don’t see how quantum theory applies in this discussion of ocean waves. Let’s move on.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Auklet

I don’t think I’m talking Greek or Russian here. We are not talking here about quantum-scale objects. So, I don’t see how quantum theory applies in this discussion. Let’s move on.

I was talking about quantum wave field energy transfer. And at least the US navy thinks it explains empirical findings in energy transfer in water wave fields.

But sure, as this is the most esoteric of the rogue mechanisms.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Auklet

I don’t think I’m talking Greek or Russian here. We are not talking here about quantum-scale objects. So, I don’t see how quantum theory applies in this discussion. Let’s move on.

I was talking about quantum wave field energy transfer. And at least the US navy thinks it explains empirical findings in energy transfer in water wave fields (and yes ofc there is quantum mechanics operating in pretty much everything, including water)... If you disagree with them . . . that's fine by me.

But sure, lets move on, as this is the most esoteric of the rogue mechanisms.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

I was talking about quantum wave field energy transfer. And at least the US navy thinks it explains empirical findings in energy transfer in water wave fields (and yes ofc there is quantum mechanics operating in pretty much everything, including water)... If you disagree with them . . . that's fine by me.

But sure, lets move on, as this is the most esoteric of the rogue mechanisms.

I did not say water. I said ocean waves. I haven’t disagreed with the US Navy; I have not been talking to those folks as far as I know. If Navy scientists/oceanographers can scale-up the basic principles of quantum mechanics to explain or predict gigantic waves traveling rogue, then fine!

[Chris31415]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Actually no, in my schema above that would be level 2. This certainly happens but is not what level 4 refers to.

There is an actual quantum mechanic mechanism over a single wave field where one wave takes energy from surrounding waves.

I think you are referring to non-linear effects, not quantum mechanical effects. The non-linear Schrodinger equation is mentioned in a lot of theoretical papers on rogue waves, but that is the form of the mathematical equations.

If there were quantum effects I would expect to see Plank’s constant in the equations.

[Auklet]

Originally Posted by Auklet

Read, for example, in Shackleton’s [Lansing's] Endurance an account of a gigantic wave he encountered during his open boat sail from Elephant Island to South Georgia Island.

"On the eleventh day a tremendous cross-sea developed and at midnight, while Shackleton was at the tiller, a line of clear sky was spotted between the south and south-west. Shackleton wrote, I called to the other men that the sky was clearing, and then a moment later I realized that what I had seen was not a rift in the clouds but the white crest of an enormous wave. During twenty-six years' experience of the ocean in all its moods I had not encountered a wave so gigantic. It was a mighty upheaval of the ocean, a thing quite apart from the big white-capped seas that had been our tireless enemies for many days. I shouted ‘For God's sake, hold on! it's got us.' Then came a moment of suspense that seemed drawn out into hours. White surged the foam of the breaking sea around us. We felt our boat lifted and flung forward like a cork in breaking surf. We were in a seething chaos of tortured water; but somehow the boat lived through it, half full of water, sagging to the dead weight and shuddering under the blow. We bailed with the energy of men fighting for life, flinging the water over the sides with every receptacle that came to our hands, and after ten minutes of uncertainty we felt the boat renew her life beneath us."

Alfred Lansing, Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Chris31415

I think you are referring to non-linear effects, not quantum mechanical effects. The non-linear Schrodinger equation is mentioned in a lot of theoretical papers on rogue waves, but that is the form of the mathematical equations.

Isn't he the guy with the cat.???

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Isn't he the guy with the cat.???

I don't think I would be sailing to South Georgia on a cat, what sort of a cat did he have?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Auklet

"On the eleventh day a tremendous cross-sea developed and at midnight, while Shackleton was at the tiller, a line of clear sky was spotted between the south and south-west. Shackleton wrote, I called to the other men that the sky was clearing, and then a moment later I realized that what I had seen was not a rift in the clouds but the white crest of an enormous wave. During twenty-six years' experience of the ocean in all its moods I had not encountered a wave so gigantic. It was a mighty upheaval of the ocean, a thing quite apart from the big white-capped seas that had been our tireless enemies for many days. I shouted ‘For God's sake, hold on! it's got us.' Then came a moment of suspense that seemed drawn out into hours. White surged the foam of the breaking sea around us. We felt our boat lifted and flung forward like a cork in breaking surf. We were in a seething chaos of tortured water; but somehow the boat lived through it, half full of water, sagging to the dead weight and shuddering under the blow. We bailed with the energy of men fighting for life, flinging the water over the sides with every receptacle that came to our hands, and after ten minutes of uncertainty we felt the boat renew her life beneath us."

Alfred Lansing, Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage

I don't think I would call that a rogue wave , it simply what happens when two wave trains meet.