SAIL OR POWER?

[Mike A]

I am a former USN Navigator, turned USMM, turned Captain, turned boat builder. The result is that I have over 400,000 miles and 7 years of time actually at sea, a solid understanding of boat design and construction.

BUT, I have never actually sailed anything other than day sailer's, all of my experience has been with power vessels.

I am planning a world voyage with my family starting in late 2018 and would like to know what watches consist of on a sail boat. My wife is but my children are not seamen, yet...

I am asking feed back from sailors who have actually crossed oceans. I need to decide if i should consider going sail for this one, I like the idea of it.

Crossing on a power boat, I would basically just put it on auto pilot, monitor the engines, do a vessel walk through once an hour, keep a look out, navigation and do maintenance as required. Unless there is heavy weather or a lot of shipping traffic it is normally easy, to the point of struggling to keep awake.

More importantly for a family cruise, I feel that on a power boat I can put my 16 year old on watch with instructions to wake me if anything comes up. But with a sail boat, I assume that one must regularly trim sails, reef sails, is it that much harder than a power boat? What is a watch like in the open ocean?

If i do go sail, i would be looking at a 45 - 60' heavily built pilot house cruiser. Comfort and safety would be more important than speed. Often times there may be just two of us making passages, my 18 year old and myself

Thanks in advance for your feed back

[Paul L]

On offshore passages sails tend to be set and then left for long periods of time. Why not do some sailing courses with the family and see how you like sailing in protected waters.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Former USN Officer here (SWO, Subs, & Other), pro sailor, boatbuilder, boat tuner, TLC provider (for boats, owner's, & crews), sailing consultant, & coach.
Try the family with sailing now, gently, & see what happens. Via boat rentals, classes, & a charter or three. Kids tend to take to it quite quickly, it's spouses which can be the sticky part. Have her learn to sail via a school (formal or otherwise) without you. Sic.

Keeping watch on a sailboat's not overly tough once folks have the basics down, & a bit of confidence. And it's fairly routine to have kids, or teens, taking watches on sailboats of all sizes. With the directive to wake the skipper if they have ANY doubts (old news for you, I know). And you can pen your standing orders to read that you should be woken for X, Y, or Z. Such as when reefing in over 20kts, for sail changes, or if anyone has to go forward (out of the cockpit). Or for various types of crossing situations with other vessels, such as ones having a CPA of within 3nm or 5nm, etc.

I learned much of the above (& more) as a kid. And was the navigator, along with having my own watches, solo, at 13 (younger when paired with my little brother). Which in cruising families is quite common.
Also, the Standing Orders thing is common practice on many vessels. Ditto on the wake the skipper thing. It's far from being done on just when working for Uncle Sam. And like on most vessels, as the Skipper you'll sleep with one ear open out of habit, & wake with any changes on deck of significance. Such as an alteration in the boat's motion, ditto on new/changing sounds, changes in weather...

Doing a long voyage via power, such as a circumnavigation, would be a bit trickier than via sail. As you'll be much more dependent on fuel availability, & the supply chain for critical things like filters, & spares. Plus you'll need to be even more anal than sailboat sailors about fuel quality. Since on a powered vessel, bad fuel = dead, or even destroyed engine(s).

Download (gratis) & read the Dashew's books. And nose around in sections on seamanship tactics, storms/heavy weather techniques, preventative maintenance especially on engines & their systems. It'll give you a better notion of what's involved in the various types of boats.
SetSail FPB » Free Books

Some of the decision(s) too depend on funds, where you'd like to go, including how it influences draft, how long you want to go for, etc. And of course the inputs of your crew. One (big) one of which is catamaran/multihull vs. mono. Since the former don't heel, have gentle motion, & shallow draft. Which in the majority of cases, women much prefer not to heel over.


EDIT: I've both skippered, & done deliveries where newbies were standing watch right away. As in folks with next to no sea time, or sailing knowledge.
Typically you start'em with daytime watches, & pair them with an experienced crewman, needs be. But for those who want to learn to sail, & who enjoy it, it really takes quite little time for them to be ready to take a watch solo. Though again, with the caveat to wake the skipper... Plus following other standing orders on watchkeeping, & onboard practices in general.

Also, get the Mrs. & family in general turned on to reading some of the sailing blogs & video blogs out there. As well as on life at sea, & what's involved, etc. Plus any & all of you won't have any problems hitching rides/crewing & gaining experience on the boats of others. There are a plethora of opportunities out there. Most of'em covered on here, but if you're at a loss, let me know.

[Calif.Ted]

Originally Posted by Mike A

Crossing on a power boat, I would basically just put it on auto pilot, monitor the engines, do a vessel walk through once an hour, keep a look out, navigation and do maintenance as required. Unless there is heavy weather or a lot of shipping traffic it is normally easy, to the point of struggling to keep awake.

Yep, That's about it on a sailboat also, except you don't have to monitor the engine.
No engine noise or vibration and the "ride" is "different". I'm probably remembering this wrong but "A sailboat will 'roll' and 'pitch' but not 'yaw'".
Anyway the counterweight of the keel against sail pressure create a kind of stability that's comforting to a sailor, even if the deck is slanted.

[Hydra]

I have no experience of crossing oceans in a yacht but I began cruising when I was 15.

Beside helming and trimming the sails when necessary, watches consist in keeping an eye open for the "tactical situation" (other boats, lighthouses, the shore, floating objects, the weather...) and fixing the position at regular intervals to make sure that the yacht isn't far from course.

IMO, a 16 year old is able to stand watches by him/herself on a sailing yacht, including trimming sails. With a good autopilot, physical strength isn't a problem if the rig is correctly set up: Vendée Globe ladies race alone during 80 to 100 days in difficult conditions.

IME, the most difficult aspect of standing watches by oneself is loneliness: my mind isn't kept fully busy with the boat and I miss having somebody to talk to.

Alain

[Adelie]

I have acquaintances who took a 46' trawler type power cruiser around. They spent upwards of $900k to buy the vessel and fuel alone was $59k. They averaged about 6kt motoring so they really weren't pushing it.

[a64pilot]

I have not crossed Oceans so I do not fit your question group.
I do however have quite a bit of power boat experience in open water.
Motion wise a power boat will roll your guts out compared to a Sea kindly sail boat.
Your Wife and kids will either be real tough or Sea sick a lot in a power boat.

[willpower1]

Originally Posted by Mike A

I am a former USN Navigator, turned USMM, turned Captain, turned boat builder. The result is that I have over 400,000 miles and 7 years of time actually at sea, a solid understanding of boat design and construction.

BUT, I have never actually sailed anything other than day sailer's, all of my experience has been with power vessels.

I am planning a world voyage with my family starting in late 2018 and would like to know what watches consist of on a sail boat. My wife is but my children are not seamen, yet...

I am asking feed back from sailors who have actually crossed oceans. I need to decide if i should consider going sail for this one, I like the idea of it.

Crossing on a power boat, I would basically just put it on auto pilot, monitor the engines, do a vessel walk through once an hour, keep a look out, navigation and do maintenance as required. Unless there is heavy weather or a lot of shipping traffic it is normally easy, to the point of struggling to keep awake.

More importantly for a family cruise, I feel that on a power boat I can put my 16 year old on watch with instructions to wake me if anything comes up. But with a sail boat, I assume that one must regularly trim sails, reef sails, is it that much harder than a power boat? What is a watch like in the open ocean?

If i do go sail, i would be looking at a 45 - 60' heavily built pilot house cruiser. Comfort and safety would be more important than speed. Often times there may be just two of us making passages, my 18 year old and myself

Thanks in advance for your feed back

I joined this forum for the same reason you did. I am leaning more towards sail due to the economics. If I had the money I would most likely do power however I like the freedom of wind power. I have many years in power boating mostly coastal near shore 100 plus miles off shore fishing and cruising the bahamas. I have never even sailed on a true blue water boat I am very interested as to how the sail boat" feels" in the "snot" so to speak verses power. On video the sail boats do not seem to pound but more of a fluid motion. I am a true novice on sail but I like economy of sail vs power.

[Mike A]

Thank you all for the great feedback, I really appreciate your taking time to answer.

I got some good guidance, really good advice and will factor in a few things that i had not considered.

I live near St. Augustine and there are plenty of opportunities to sail; I will start off with a couple of day trips and work my way up to a BVI charter week.

The tough thing for me is that i have a designed and built a power boat that can do the trip. I even have a 49' hull needing completion and all the molds to finish it. But it would cost at least $400K to finish and $600K to do nice.

You'll read in the article attached that the boat that i built had pod drives but I also have a 49' hull built that I designed for props with a deeper keel and additional fuel. Like many small boat builders, I had to shut down during the great recession.

It is a tough pill to swallow, not to complete the boat and steam it around the world. But the combination economics and technical issues may force my hand. On the other hand, may enjoy it even more with no motor noise

I have attached an article about a passage, I made on it.

Thanks again.

[Kenomac]

A powercat is your answer.

When you factor in the cost of a new set of sails which you'll use up traveling 30,000 miles along with new rigging, burning diesel is cheaper and easier. Even with sails, you're going to burn diesel at times.

Shipping the boat across the longest passages is even better.

[Mike A]

Here is the article that i mentioned.

[Mike A]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

A powercat is your answer.

When you factor in the cost of a new set of sails which you'll use up traveling 30,000 miles along with new rigging, burning diesel is cheaper and easier. Even with sails, you're going to burn diesel at times.

Shipping the boat across the longest passages is even better.

"

I had considered catamarans, they have a ton of initial stability but no reserve stability. I do not intend to ship the boat anywhere, the passages are half the adventure... I also intend to venture into high latitudes. At some point on our cruise we will hit serious weather.

I almost lost a 40 meter steel hulled boat in the Western Med one time. Wind kicked up to sustained hurricane force with almost no warning. There were 30' short period seas, I am not sure a catamaran would have survived.

But I will research catamaran in heavy weather, I'll admit that i don't know everything. I like the on deck volume and would be great for anchorages.

[Mike A]

[QUOTE=UNCIVILIZED;2364026]F
One (big) one of which is catamaran/multihull vs. mono. Since the former don't heel, have gentle motion, & shallow draft. Which in the majority of cases, women much prefer not to heel over.

You and another have suggested that I consider catamarans

My Concern would be HEAVY weather, Ive been caught out more than once in force 10 and I think you always have to anticipate that it will happen on an on any big passage.

I have read a few articles on cats in heavy weather, it seems like they are pretty unforgiving in big seas, having the sails out of trim or taking a breaking wave on the beam can be disastrous, even pitch poling driving straight into them.

Considering that i'll be hitting higher latitudes is a cat still something I'd consider?

[Suijin]

There is something magical and deeply gratifying about finishing a 2,800 mile passage and only having burnt a gallon of diesel.

As for watches, usually it's one person officially on watch and one backup, usually the person with the next watch; more can be woken or called on deck as necessary. Yes sails are set and trimmed for long periods, but at night at least you're going to get squalls and need the reef down accordingly. The standing orders are not as all too complicated for a teenager provided they are responsible and conscientious to begin with. Biggest issue I've found with teenagers is occasionally falling asleep on night watches.

It's really more a function of personality and aptitude than age.