Sailing Zatara causing some Pacific ripples

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

The threat of arrest for leaving a house is not a big selling point, Id get the heck out of there too

Ummm, a little exaggerated dont you think, your saying kiwis are locked in their houses currently?
Let's put this in perspective, everyone's a little stuck currently due to one restriction or another, NZ isnt such a bad place to be stuck., as I said theres many cruisers really "stuck" that would very much like to be in NZ.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by OloteleMtn

“The vessel may stay only while the patrol boat is there, and when the patrol boat leaves, they must leave,” he said."
Sounds like their "fate" is decided......golly you must be fun to hang out with.

So as of yet they have done nothing wrong.

I wonder if they will call tongas bluff, its not tongas reef, its even out side of their EEZ, make for a hell of a youtube video... Texans have resolve.

It wont happen, but it would be glorious to see a FON by a US warship, especially one from Texas, seeing some 103' tonga navy boat try to bully a little American sail boat only to have a US nuclear carrier show up..... a boy can dream



"U.S. policy since 1983 provides that the United States will exercise and assert its navigation and overflight rights and freedoms on a worldwide basis in a manner that is consistent with the balance of interests reflected in the Law of the Sea (LOS) Convention. The United States will not, however, acquiesce in unilateral acts of other states designed to restrict the rights and freedoms of the international community in navigation and overflight and other related high seas uses. The FON Program since 1979 has highlighted the navigation provisions of the LOS Convention to further the recognition of the vital national need to protect maritime rights throughout the world. The FON Program operates on a triple track, involving not only diplomatic representations and operational assertions by U.S. military units, but also bilateral and multilateral consultations with other governments in an effort to promote maritime stability and consistency with international law, stressing the need for and obligation of all States to adhere to the customary international law rules and practices reflected in the LOS Convention"

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Ummm, a little exaggerated dont you think, your saying kiwis are locked in their houses currently?
Let's put this in perspective, everyone's a little stuck currently due to one restriction or another, NZ isnt such a bad place to be stuck., as I said theres many cruisers really "stuck" that would very much like to be in NZ.

No, in many countries, such as the US, Im ASKED to stay home, I'm not threatened with police action though, its a big difference in culture.

Also forcing a obviously healthy sail boat crew who has been at sea for a LONG time to quarantine

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Ummm, a little exaggerated dont you think, your saying kiwis are locked in their houses currently?
Let's put this in perspective, everyone's a little stuck currently due to one restriction or another, NZ isnt such a bad place to be stuck., as I said theres many cruisers really "stuck" that would very much like to be in NZ.

never been to NZ but i think cold is an issue. We are spending time in north NSW with night low temperatures around 10 C. And we do not like it and hoping to get to QLD in not too distant future where low night temperatures are more like 20c. Guess NZ is even colder.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Per the first part yes, follow the logical progression, you say "no Im not giving your my XYZ" they will use violence to take it, gov can not exist without a monopoly, or near monopoly on violence.

1 Minerva Reef IS NOT Tonga territory (see the links I posted)
2 Tonga said the boats could use it as a safe harbor (per my quote)
3 Tonga said they boat could stay as long as their patrol boat was there (see other quote)

4 It would be VERY interesting to see the tiny Tonga navy send one of their 3 103' patrol boats to kidnap 5 US citizens who are not even in their legal waters, 5 citizens who also make money by telling their story complete with high def video, a story LOTS of people watch.

Actually, the Pacific Islands Forum recognizes Minerva Reef as part of the territory of Tonga.

Tonga and Fiji have been in periodic talks regarding these reefs. Last was April 2020 (if I recollect correctly).

Your links to Wikipedia and GlobalSecurity (an NPO) only serves to show your lack of understanding of the Pacific region. For example, you do realize Wake Island is not within the EEZ of the US. You might want to look up what nation claims Bouvet Island. Or explain why Kingman reef or Jarvis Island is under US jurisdiction and not that of East Kiribati. Or why Kiribati atoll, Tabuaeran and Teraina islands 1200 nm away from Tarawa are part of the nation of Kiribati.

Yes, Tonga allows use as a safe harbor anytime when necessary. This is not a necessary stop.

Most nations require a cruising permit to access islands, atolls, and reefs within its jurisdiction.

Despite the Tongan Navy's statements...the fact is this vessel and her crew showed a complete disregard for Tongan authority.

And yes indeed, i would like to see this family detained and repatriated to the US. It would make a great hi-def video on youboob that would hopefully prevent more googans from sailing this way.

Apparently you don't like laws and rules (even if they seem arbitrary), so please don't sail to the Pac or SE Asia and ruin it for the rest of us.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

So what rules did they violate? ...you got some you tubers who BROKE ZERO RULES, who promote crusing, and who committed the horrible crime of having a different opinion than you,

NorthernMac, you keep repeating that refrain, "broke zero rules" but they declared thier intention to go to, Minervia, a part of Tonga (despite your claims, and BTW, EEZ does not determine nationality) while Tonga is not allowing visitors, including foreign yachts. That seems to me to be breaking a pretty sifnificant rule.

Perhaps your point would carry more force if you declared it to be a "Fake Rule".

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

IF they should anchor at the Minerva Reefs, even though it is disputed territory it is part of a sovereign nation. Currently the South Pacific Forum recognizes Minerva Reefs as part of Tonga.

Nobody said anything about "using force" or "threaten violence."

When a person enters a country illegally, the government of that country doesn't need to use force to confiscate property or repatriate those individuals.

Declaring that you are knowingly going to violate a countries laws makes you a criminal.

They can travel...they can't stop.

Originally Posted by Evenstar

As a cruiser, I prefer to respect the laws, customs and mores of the countries which host me. I'm a guest, and no country has an obligation to take me. And I have exactly zero rights to barge in uninvited and demand special treatment.

I agree with this. Another way of putting it is, "Leave a clean wake". Certainly the Zataras are not doing that.

Originally Posted by Evenstar

... I've seen first hand how poor behavior by cruisers affects other cruisers.
You can certainly debate that their behavior was "legal" as they were intending to exploit a bit of diplomatic fuzziness to get their way. So yes, legal. As would have setting out for Fiji, if they dot all the I's and cross the T's the way Fiji wants you to. I hope for their sake they do that instead of just showing up.
But you can also debate how sensible or ethical it is heading to a country's waters (disputed or not) where they country has said explicitly "No, you are not welcome." And that's the crux of it, to me.
Zatara had been mouthing off a lot of bad ideas here in NZ before they left, and they were all fired to get out ASAP. They had one extra special ranting video that made the rounds that they had to delete, the pushback was so strong. Good riddance and good luck to them, they didn't like it here anyway, I guess. But among those of us who actually are here cruising, those ideas were very poorly received, for a reason.

It's clear to me, Zataras are spoiled children who think that rules don't apply to them, and further, if they are bored with New Zealand I wonder how long they will last at Minerva Reef?

Now, as to NorthernMac, I can see from your characterization (below) where you stand. You want to trivialize Covid-19. Hmmm, reminds me of someone else.

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

...Problem is with this cough...

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

...it would be glorious to see a FON by a US warship, especially one from Texas, seeing some 103' tonga navy boat try to bully a little American sail boat only to have a US nuclear carrier show up..... a boy can dream

AND, that too reminds me of someone else, and most of the rest of the world is probably thinikng that too, Bullies like to dream about bullying.

[sanibel sailor]

agree

Four years ago, I reassured an Australian that there were too many decent people in the US to allow this disaster that has subsequently unfolded to occur. I was wrong. I love my country but am ashamed of the direction our nation and our attitudes have taken.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

The threat of arrest for leaving a house is not a big selling point, Id get the heck out of there too

The trouble is, it's that attitude that prevents the US and many other countries from getting anywhere. Here in nz although I don't think anyone actually got arrested, we all knew what had to be done to fix the problem. Staying at home for 6 weeks, then being careful for a couple more means that the virus has gone and for the past month or more we've been able to do anything we like, barring easy international travel of course. Voluntarily doing the right thing leads to more freedom, not less. Meanwhile we just watch the news to see that covid19 is still a thing in other countries.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by wingssail

NorthernMac, you keep repeating that refrain, "broke zero rules" but they declared thier intention to go to, Minervia, a part of Tonga (despite your claims, and BTW, EEZ does not determine nationality) while Tonga is not allowing visitors, including foreign yachts. That seems to me to be breaking a pretty sifnificant rule.

Perhaps your point would carry more force if you declared it to be a "Fake Rule".





I agree with this. Another way of putting it is, "Leave a clean wake". Certainly the Zataras are not doing that.



It's clear to me, Zataras are spoiled children who think that rules don't apply to them, and further, if they are bored with New Zealand I wonder how long they will last at Minerva Reef?

Now, as to NorthernMac, I can see from your characterization (below) where you stand. You want to trivialize Covid-19. Hmmm, reminds me of someone else.





AND, that too reminds me of someone else, and most of the rest of the world is probably thinikng that too, Bullies like to dream about bullying.

For one, its not their island, its disputed at best, overall who cares its a super remote reef with no population, Id say doesnt tonga have something better to do, however I kinda doubt they do.

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

The trouble is, it's that attitude that prevents the US and many other countries from getting anywhere. Here in nz although I don't think anyone actually got arrested, we all knew what had to be done to fix the problem. Staying at home for 6 weeks, then being careful for a couple more means that the virus has gone and for the past month or more we've been able to do anything we like, barring easy international travel of course. Voluntarily doing the right thing leads to more freedom, not less. Meanwhile we just watch the news to see that covid19 is still a thing in other countries.

Living on your knees is far worse than dying

Luckily this virus has a VERY low kill rate


Ether way, I had no idea about this youtube channel, but am very interested in the videos of these events.

[Discovery 15797]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

For one, its not their island, its disputed at best, overall who cares its a super remote reef with no population, Id say doesnt tonga have something better to do, however I kinda doubt they do.

Again...as many have stated, and contrary to your belief, the Tongan government exercises control over these reefs. Just because they are disputed does not mean they are free for anyone to occupy. And just because you choose to ignore facts does not negate those facts no matter how many times you repeat baseless falsehoods trying to subvert those facts.

The issue at hand is not necessarily whether they present a risk, the over-riding issue is that they have flagrantly violated the law of a sovereign nation even after being informed they could not gain clearance.

Maybe, that is not a big deal to you. Maybe you think it is over-reach. But for those of us who actually cruise these waters and respect the islanders and their way of life it is pretty damn important.

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Living on your knees is far worse than dying

Luckily this virus has a VERY low kill rate


Ether way, I had no idea about this youtube channel, but am very interested in the videos of these events.

You might want to watch a recent episode of Patrick Childress Sailing, if you haven't watched many YouTube sailing videos

[martinworswick]

If anyone bothered to check the date on that article and then watched zatara's latest youtube video they'd realise there is actually no story here.
There seems to be a lot of hate for zatara on here and i'm not sure why?many of the accusations made in this thread are false or at least partly true-they weren't cruising around anchorages whilst new zealand was in lockdown-once they were informed they had to stay put they did just that!

[lamadriver]

They didn't break any rules.

I hadn't really heard of them until this thread and had some time to kill at work today so I watched a video or two. They like the drama, it's part of the persona. If it were me, I would have cleared out for A. Samoa, Guam, or Fiji and if I changed my mind based on safety. en-route well, it happens.

I don't think it is fair to criticize them for leaving NZ, different strokes for different folks. That's the beauty of cruising.

I cant believe this hasn't been posted but from there tracker :
"Nasty squally weather
Sun Jul 05 2020

Yesterday the sail was very fast and quick. We had 25-30 from 080m. We decided to stop in Minerva before continuing on to our next destination to wait out some weather. We checked in 12 miles outside with the Tongan Navy and got permission to stay over until the next weather window which is looking like Thursday. They where super nice and professional and we had a very good chat over the radio. It is nice to be in the warm South Pacific Trade’s.

No shoes, no shirt. Hatches open and clear warm water. Is there any other kind of life.

Until next time…




ld

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Discovery 15797

Again...as many have stated, and contrary to your belief, the Tongan government exercises control over these reefs. Just because they are disputed does not mean they are free for anyone to occupy. And just because you choose to ignore facts does not negate those facts no matter how many times you repeat baseless falsehoods trying to subvert those facts.

The issue at hand is not necessarily whether they present a risk, the over-riding issue is that they have flagrantly violated the law of a sovereign nation even after being informed they could not gain clearance.

Maybe, that is not a big deal to you. Maybe you think it is over-reach. But for those of us who actually cruise these waters and respect the islanders and their way of life it is pretty damn important.

Yeah, but its not part of their sovereign nation.

Might be why they arnt trying to get too heavy handed with sailors using it

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

You might want to watch a recent episode of Patrick Childress Sailing, if you haven't watched many YouTube sailing videos

It was heartbreaking, Patrick however was 70 years old, it says nothing about any co morbidity or any other heath issues he had, his wife said she was checking his temp for MONTHS, so I'm not sure if there was other stuff going on.

If his spo2 was in the 80s, I doubt he could even stand, and Id wager his mental abilities were compromised, cyanosis, higher heart rate, etc, he probably needed to be on supplemental o2 weeks before they went to the hospital.

Based off the numbers its is still very rare for this virus to be fatal shy of very old age and/or someone already being very sick, thus the majority of deaths were nursing homes where the people were normally older and not in good shape.


I'm sorry for her loss, that said I still would not give up a single right, even if it was my family, or myself in the ICU.
If youre sick stay your ass at home, dont cough on people, wash your hards, basic stuff....also she REALLY should have called EMS vs some poor cab driver to transport her deathly sick husband.

Its sad when anyone dies, especially someone who is that popular in the sailing world, that said people die, you will die, I will die, thats how the world works, and hiding at home isnt the answer, not based on science or on life, best we as humans can do is try to live the most out of life while we are still around to do so, might be covid, might live your life in a bubble only to have a tree fall on your hermetically sealed house and crush you to death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6YXm4b3H5c

[jstrru402]

I wonder if all these America haters that are suddenly hard up on laws, who would find joy in Zatara being repatriated after having their boat confiscated because they illegally entered a country, would apply that same logic to the tens of millions of illegal aliens in the US...