Sailing Zatara causing some Pacific ripples

[Wallaby]

Originally Posted by Brewgyver

And last time I checked (about five seconds before typing this), Fiji is a sovereign state, as well. Fiji has somewhat opened up it's borders, and Minerva Reefs are actually WITHIN Fiji's Exclusive Economic Zone, NOT Tonga's. There are NO inhabitants, and Tonga's present interest in the area is apparently that of protecting it from over-fishing, mostly from large Chinese long-range fishing
vessels.

Be careful you don't hurt yourself getting off that high horse.

Well, EXCUSE ME! Let me begin by saying that if Tonga is interested in preventing Chinese over-fishing, MORE POWER TO THEM.



However, let's get the record straight about Minerva Reefs. There have been various claims over the years, none by Europeans when it was discovered, mapped/etc. The first claim was The Republic of Minerva which issued a claim of independence on 19 January 1972. The islands were also claimed by Tonga with an expedition of 90 prisoners to enforce the claim by building an artificial island with permanent structures above the high-tide mark. Like your 'high horse', that would be the 'high ground.'

The Tongan flag was raised on 21 June 1972, and the islands formally annexed on the 26th. Tonga's claim was formally recognized by the South Pacific Forum in September 1972.
Fiji's claim began in 2005 and was disputed by Tonga. Since then, Fiji has destroyed navigation lights and other Tongan property. As far as I know the claim is still unresolved.

FYI, of Tonga's many islands, most are not inhabited. This does not mean anyone else has the right to occupy them without permission. According to Noonsite,



Important Pre-Arrival Information: Tonga Customs requires that all yachts arriving from overseas must submit an Advance Notice of Arrival Form (ANOA) no less than 24 hours before the estimated time of arrival (ETA) of the craft in Tonga.

The official ports of entry are: Lifuka (Ha’apai), Neiafu (Vava’u), Niuafo’ou Island, Niuatoputapu Island, Nuku’alofa (Tongatapu)

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Location checks

I see lots of insults at me in there, but very light on the facts and supporting evidence to back any of it up.

So what rights do they not have?
You got 10 basic rights, just give me the numbers of the ones they don’t have

I’d be more than happy to take the Pepsi challenge on social station, education and experience level as well as how much I’ve given back to society in comparison to the average rioter.

No one “allows” me to keep speaking, as it’s my right, some might say the best solution to speech one doesn’t like is more speech, not forced silence.


The above seems to be the youtubers problem as well, all this hate because they spoke out that the draconian rules were silly, even though what everyone accused them of was proven false a few times, folks just regroup and try to find something else to crucify them over, it’s a odd world we are living in. Vilify a fellow sailor who worked hard to live the dream with his kids, but make saints out of looters and rioters, and all on a thread in a sailing group. Odd odd odd

"I see lots of insults at me in there, but very light on the facts and supporting evidence to back any of it up".

Wow! Are you implying you don't like that approach?

Funny, I'd be willing to bet that you've been supportive of the "insulter in chief" who also backs up none of his statements with any facts.

"Vilify a fellow sailor who worked hard to live the dream with his kids, but make saints out of looters and rioters"

We've been doing this? You think we've been making saints out of looters and rioters? That seem like gross exaggeration not backed up by facts, perhaps another trait picked up from the "exaggerator in chief".

"Fellow sailor"? Just because they are sailors does not mean they are "fellows" of mine. Blind demands of loyalty is another idiotic trait possibly picked up from the same dubious source. When a sailor, any sailor, decides to be a bad world citizen, they are no longer worthy of my support or respect. They do too much damage to the reputation of the rest of us and should be shunned.

[Luckyknot]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

Location checks

I see lots of insults at me in there, but very light on the facts and supporting evidence to back any of it up.

So what rights do they not have?
You got 10 basic rights, just give me the numbers of the ones they don’t have

I’d be more than happy to take the Pepsi challenge on social station, education and experience level as well as how much I’ve given back to society in comparison to the average rioter.

No one “allows” me to keep speaking, as it’s my right, some might say the best solution to speech one doesn’t like is more speech, not forced silence.


The above seems to be the youtubers problem as well, all this hate because they spoke out that the draconian rules were silly, even though what everyone accused them of was proven false a few times, folks just regroup and try to find something else to crucify them over, it’s a odd world we are living in. Vilify a fellow sailor who worked hard to live the dream with his kids, but make saints out of looters and rioters, and all on a thread in a sailing group. Odd odd odd

TROLL ALERT!!!
Do not respond! Unlike the Novel Coronavirus (SARS-COV-2), trolls eventually disappear when you ignore them long enough

[Wallaby]

Originally Posted by jstrru402

I wonder if all these America haters that are suddenly hard up on laws, who would find joy in Zatara being repatriated after having their boat confiscated because they illegally entered a country, would apply that same logic to the tens of millions of illegal aliens in the US...

You raise an important point that is lost in the debate. The right of a country and its people to sovereignty is the real key issue. This is ' the full right and power of a governing body over itself, without any interference from outside sources or bodies'. By this, both illegal immigration and illegal entry constitute acts against the country. To allow one and not the other is hypocritical.


That said, common sense prevailed. According to Zatara's Sunday 5th July report, the Tongan navy has allowed their stay at Minerva.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Luckyknot

TROLL ALERT!!!
Do not respond! Unlike the Novel Coronavirus (SARS-COV-2), trolls eventually disappear when you ignore them long enough

So you’re going to try to silence me by putting a label on me, many groups have used that tactic when they couldn’t debate with facts and logic, you might want to check who you’re keeping company with in they regard.

That said, if you must try to dismiss my voice by labeling me vs debating the points, please be a little more original, I mean at least like “Russian robot” is kinda funny

Originally Posted by wingssail

"I see lots of insults at me in there, but very light on the facts and supporting evidence to back any of it up".

Wow! Are you implying you don't like that approach?

Funny, I'd be willing to bet that you've been supportive of the "insulter in chief" who also backs up none of his statements with any facts.

"Vilify a fellow sailor who worked hard to live the dream with his kids, but make saints out of looters and rioters"

We've been doing this? You think we've been making saints out of looters and rioters? That seem like gross exaggeration not backed up by facts, perhaps another trait picked up from the "exaggerator in chief".

"Fellow sailor"? Just because they are sailors does not mean they are "fellows" of mine. Blind demands of loyalty is another idiotic trait possibly picked up from the same dubious source. When a sailor, any sailor, decides to be a bad world citizen, they are no longer worthy of my support or respect. They do too much damage to the reputation of the rest of us and should be shunned.

For one, with the president, he’s done some stuff I like, some stuff I don’t like, I’m not on the trump train, but I also am VERY concerned with what happens with riots, doxing, MeTooing innocent people, and cancel culture etc if he doesn’t win, I think it would reaffirm those disgusting anti American tactics and promote more of that behavior, ether way that’s a different discussion.

Yes, many folks here have been dragging them through the mud, heck you yourself said they are no fellow sailor of yours
You didn’t try to make the rioters out to be good people, that was lucky in Baltimore

But on the water, not sure what your experience level is, but if you’re sailing you’re a fellow sailor, if you love and are blindly obedient to government, or if you distrust it and want less of it, the taste of exploration and the enjoyment of a full sail and favorable conditions is something we all can share, patriots, statists, even nihilists & youtubers too.
So yes, fellow sailors

[Luckyknot]

Don't do it wingssail...Don't bite...Let it go...It's just not worth it. Notice the tactics of putting words in other people's mouths and fighting for a side that is then denied. It'll just leave you exhausted and leave them as ignorant as when they started.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Luckyknot

Don't do it wingssail...Don't bite...Let it go...It's just not worth it. Notice the tactics of putting words in other people's mouths and fighting for a side that is then denied. It'll just leave you exhausted and leave them as ignorant as when they started.

What are you taking about dude?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Luckyknot

Don't do it wingssail...Don't bite...Let it go...It's just not worth it. Notice the tactics of putting words in other people's mouths and fighting for a side that is then denied. It'll just leave you exhausted and leave them as ignorant as when they started.

Yes, I get it. My wife is sitting here telling me exactly the same thing. OK.

[Moontide]

Hard to believe some of the posts here. Sure sounds to me like most of the posters here have not actually watched the Zatara video in question. My recollection is that they have provisions for 6 months and fuel for 3 (although with their solar they could greatly extend that with some conserving). He also indicated that they were not going to crash a country and had several places that they had the ability to go to that would let them in. If Tonga was not reopened before they got there they had no intention of going there. I guess part of the question is who "owns" Minevera. In the fairly recent past there have been confrontations between Tonga and Fiji over this issue. But its really moot since the population of Miverva is ZERO.



So they are on a well found vessel with adequate supplies (and skill) to go months at sea. If there are no Covid cases in NZ it is a pretty low chance that they are carriers. And they will have been "self isolated" for many weeks before getting anywhere.



Maybe some of the posters need to watch the video and see what he actually said. Obviously NZ was OK with them departing (and they are hard core about that down there).


Bottom line for me is that they looked at the facts and made what seems to me to be a rational decision. They made it clear that they were not going to "crash" a country as many posters have stated here. IMHO whether they crashed Tonga by going to Minerva is open to dispute.



Well found boat, skilled crew and legal alternatives of places to go. What's wrong with that?

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Moontide

HBut its really moot since the population of Miverva is ZERO.

Moot? I will try that the next time I cross the border into the US and anchor at one of the uninhabited islets without checking in with CBP. Better yet I will head over to one of the American overseas protectorates and say because its outside of the zone it not American. Its a pretty simple issue.You only get to got o other countries if they say so.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Moot? I will try that the next time I cross the border into the US and anchor at one of the uninhabited islets without checking in with CBP. Better yet I will head over to one of the American overseas protectorates and say because its outside of the zone it not American. Its a pretty simple issue.You only get to got o other countries if they say so.

The reef isn’t their country though, plus they even asked first, so I’d agree, moot

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by NorthernMac

The reef isn’t their country though

Says you. That is not apparently what they say.

[Moontide]

The "moot" in my post was referring to the chances of them infecting anyone. Can't be done if there is no one to infect so yes, the infecting issue is moot in this case.



I addressed the territorial issue elsewhere in my post.

[NorthernMac]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Says you. That is not apparently what they say.

Says international law, a chart and a ruler

Doesn’t matter though as they were even kind enough to ask Tonga anyways, as has been covered more than a few times in this thread

[Lazy1]

I thought I saw them talking to NZ authorities in their last video to get clearance to depart.