Schooner VS Containership

[El Pinguino]

A little bit of research based in part on a short vid on the Daily Mail ( people speaking are from Stade as is the fireboat ) and in part on the vid posted in this thread suggests that this happened just upstream of the Luehesand ( near the Iso.W and the small boat harbour) which has two power pylons on it ... as can be seen behind the Astrosprinter.....
The channel here is barely 2 cables wide..... and the Astrosprinter was sharing it with some very large outbound ships ... to suggest she should have given way to the schooner is laughable.
There is a sweeping bend to the left .... if inbound.... that may be why the Astrosprinter appears to be making a slight alteration to port.

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks, ep. Isn't evidence helpful? Thanks for the research.

[El Pinguino]

Elbe 5 would now appear to be here... next to the Stader-Elbestrasser

[MartinR]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

... to suggest she should have given way to the schooner is laughable.

That is correct. Things look very different from the bridge of a larger vessel. The only thing to do in theses situations is to stand on and hope that the sailboat comes to her senses. I have been in quite a few "close calls" like this, without ever colliding, yet. The container vessel could not have turned to starboard, there is not enough water. She could maybe have moved over a little bit to port, but that would have been a strange move, as the sailing vessel was obviously trying to cross ahead.

The bridge teams on most ships have no idea how sailboats work, so for them it was probably very strange that Elbe 5 did not just turn 40 degrees or so to starboard.

Basic conclusion: Stay out of the way of commercial traffic. Always and everywhere.

[Flagman101]

Never sailed there or been there but the Elbe looks to me that it should be under rule 9. Narrow channel
Any vessel under 20 mt or sailboats must give way to larger vessels 20 mt or more.
The container was the stand on vessel.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by Flagman101

Never sailed there or been there but the Elbe looks to me that it should be under rule 9. Narrow channel

I believe it's specifically designated so. (English version of the German regs here.) Also bad for the schooner is that traffic following the fairway is explicitly given right of way over those entering, crossing, etc. per these rules.

[Pelican_38]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...After a long series of studies all they came up with was an Acronym, they named it SLOJ or sudden loss of judgement,

Not to change the subject, but SLOJ is the name of my next boat!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Flagman101

Never sailed there or been there but the Elbe looks to me that it should be under rule 9. Narrow channel
Any vessel under 20 mt or sailboats must give way to larger vessels 20 mt or more.
The container was the stand on vessel.

Rule 9 doesn't work that way. It does not make any vessel stand on.

[Flagman101]

https://ecolregs.com/index.php?optio...id=384&lang=en
9d

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Rule 9 doesn't work that way. It does not make any vessel stand on.

In the Elbe the container ship had 'right of way'....
From the local regs quoted above at #36.... https://www.bsh.de/DE/PUBLIKATIONEN/...cationFile&v=8

§ 25 Right of way of ships in a fairway
(1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d), 15, and 18(a) to (c) of the International Regula- tions for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended, the regulations contained in the following paragraphs shall apply to vessels navigating in a fairway.
(2) A vessel proceeding along the course of the fairway channel, irrespective of whether or not she can safely navigate only within the fairway channel, shall have the right of way over vessels
1. entering that fairway,
2. crossing that fairway,
3. making turns in that fairway,............
...........

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Flagman101

https://ecolregs.com/index.php?optio...id=384&lang=en
9d

9a, 9b and 9d all seem to apply:

Rule 9 (Narrow channels)
(a) A vessel proceeding along the course of a narrow channel or fairway shall keep as near to the outer limit or the channel or fairway which lies on her starboard side as is safe and practicable. It appeared that the schooner was far over to the port side of the channel and beating into a headwind at far from anything resembling a right angle across the channel generally proceeding towards returning to the starboard side of the channel; per this rule the schooner likely should not have passed beyond the centerline of the shipping lane, albeit if it had stayed in the shallows far to the oncoming container ships starboard side so as to pass starboard to starboard, it likely would have avoided the collision. Wrong time to be on the wrong side of the narrow channel.

(b) A vessel of less than 20 m in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway. My general rule of thumb is to just quit sailing when the course requires to otherwise tack your way through a narrow channel, especially as to the necessity for repeated tacks within a narrow channel as there often is no room for a Plan B with a failed tack or a windshift, or the wind slows or stops. There being a time and a place for the iron jib to be unfurled.

. . .

(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel of fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34 (d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel. In the video I heard the schooner sound five horn toots in two rapid successions just seconds from the collision but I did not hear the container ship make any sound signals. Taking time to sound signal was a wrong choice of action as it further delayed the skipper's needed course alteration. Sound doesn't change the direction of ships, might as well have yelled Hey for all it was going to accomplish.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Montanan

9a, 9b and 9d all seem to apply:
........

Not in the Elbe.. they have been - new word of the day - derogated.....

from above ..

"(1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d),"

Mind you the intent of both is the same.. just spelt out in more detail in the local rules...

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Not in the Elbe.. they have been - new word of the day - derogated.....

from above .. That posting referral to the local rule of the Elbe fairway seems to have become deleted but I saw it for a brief moment and it certainly did seem to be a derogation of the International rules. Well, Local Rules Rule and the safety implications seem to be consistent as to how to avoid collisions in the fairway.

"(1) In derogation of the provisions of Rules 9(b) to (d),"

Mind you the intent of both is the same.. just spelt out in more detail in the local rules...

Derogate: verb.

deviate from (a set of rules or agreed form of behavior).
"one country has derogated from the Rome Convention"

Now my issue in navigating the Elbe would be to find an English language version of the local rules so as to not faff about. Even though I am primarily of German ancestry, I have to admit the extent of my German language skills [read lack thereof] is limited to Godzundheit. Got ya covered if you sneeze.

Now if Google would just come out with a map navigator that also provided guidance as to the local rules, such that it would say: Return to starboard, you drunken sailor.

[Bill Seal]

As far as I remember, (from Boot Camp) steering commands are RUDDER commands. Doesn't matter if it's a wheel or tiller, it's that barn door thingy in the water that counts.
Of course, my time in the USCG was spent chasing electrons; maybe a Bosun's Mate coule chime in here.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Bill Seal

As far as I remember, (from Boot Camp) steering commands are RUDDER commands. Doesn't matter if it's a wheel or tiller, it's that barn door thingy in the water that counts.
Of course, my time in the USCG was spent chasing electrons; maybe a Bosun's Mate coule chime in here.

Correct... 'starboard' means tip of rudder goes to starboard and bow also goes to starboard....