Symmetrical Spinnaker Drops

[Limestone]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some advice and ideas on how to douse my symmetrical spinnaker with the current setup that I have.

Background: I've got a 1990 Canadian Sailcraft 34' that I sail in Lake Ontario and the Thousand Islands. My pole is stored vertically on the mast when not in use. I do dip-pole gybes to get around the baby-stay and clear the forestay. I am equipped with separate sheets and guys for spinnaker use, as well as a topping lift and downhaul for the pole. The chute is launched from the bag and does not have a sock.

Everything can be controlled from the cockpit's winches and clutches on the cabin-top, with the exception of the pole height on the tracks. Moving those controls back to the mast would be simple.

My cockpit has a pair of winches on the cabin top and then the usual primary winches in the cockpit. I am not equipped with secondary winches for dedicated spinnaker control, so I rely on the primaries to control sheets and guys.

Now given my setup, and knowing that I'm probably not going to buy secondary winches and lacking money for a spinnaker sock, what would you all consider as options for dousing the chute? How would you do it in 10-15 knots of wind if you had 4-5 able-bodied people onboard (racing), and also, how would you do it sailing shorthanded with the admiral on a light-wind weekend cruise?

Oh and before you suggest a letter-box takedown, I should probably mention that I have a stack-pack on the main that is fixed to the boom.

Cheers!

[dfelsent]

There are so many ways to do the drop.
Singlehanded I used to put the chute in the shadow of the main with the pole all the way forward (on the headstay) and drop into the cockpit and down the companionway. Under the boom. While still off the wind. With no jib.

Crew of 4-5 I’d go for the traditional leeward takedown. If you are racing you’ll hoist the jib and drop the chute into the cockpit as you turn upwind.

Neither is difficult if you make sure you have plenty of time and sea room. Practice in lighter air and slowly. Accuracy first. Speed comes later, naturally.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Limestone

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some advice and ideas on how to douse my symmetrical spinnaker with the current setup that I have.

Background: I've got a 1990 Canadian Sailcraft 34' that I sail in Lake Ontario and the Thousand Islands. My pole is stored vertically on the mast when not in use. I do dip-pole gybes to get around the baby-stay and clear the forestay. I am equipped with separate sheets and guys for spinnaker use, as well as a topping lift and downhaul for the pole. The chute is launched from the bag and does not have a sock.

Everything can be controlled from the cockpit's winches and clutches on the cabin-top, with the exception of the pole height on the tracks. Moving those controls back to the mast would be simple.

My cockpit has a pair of winches on the cabin top and then the usual primary winches in the cockpit. I am not equipped with secondary winches for dedicated spinnaker control, so I rely on the primaries to control sheets and guys.

Now given my setup, and knowing that I'm probably not going to buy secondary winches and lacking money for a spinnaker sock, what would you all consider as options for dousing the chute? How would you do it in 10-15 knots of wind if you had 4-5 able-bodied people onboard (racing), and also, how would you do it sailing shorthanded with the admiral on a light-wind weekend cruise?

Oh and before you suggest a letter-box takedown, I should probably mention that I have a stack-pack on the main that is fixed to the boom.

Cheers!

We sail a 43ft sloop, We use both assym and symmetrical chutes. We fly (and drop) either with just two of us (old f**rts) on board or with a racing crew. No socks.

Short handed: turn down wind, putting kite behind the mainsail and ease the pole to the head stay, tip to the deck if possible. One person is aft steering and easing the halyard, the other is forward pulling the kite down into an open forward hatch. The key is to keep steering so that the collapsed kite stays behind the main and doesn't start to blow away to either side.

Fully crewed: Same as above if your take down is early. Otherwise, after the jib is rolled out (or hoisted), turn the corner into the wind and blow the halyard about 1/2 way while 2-3 people on the foredeck pull the kite down behind and underneath the jib. If the jib has been sheeted in the kite will collapse into the dead air behind the jib and can be gathered quickly by the forward hands without going into the water.

There are some other takedown techniques, but we always drop the spinnaker onto the foredeck, never back into the cockpit.

We never release the tack or sheets, always just drop the halyard but the pole does go foreward just prior to the drop and if you have enough hands, let the tip of the pole down to the deck.

[Kijit]

On our 41', pole and halyard are at the mast. My wife and I take the spinnaker down much like others have described. Let the pole go almost all the way to the forestay, trimmed in pretty hard on the sheet, I go to the bow and pop the shackle at the pole, then release the clutch for the halyard as I pass the mast on my way back to the cockpit and we both pull it in as fast as we can! Then we sit there in the cockpit covered by spinnaker cloth laughing at what we screwed up!

[Limestone]

Thank you everyone for your responses.

What I can't wrap my head around (for racing) is how to hoist/unfurl the jib, and then sheet it in while the only cockpit winch is in use by the spinnaker sheet.

Any thoughts?

[JPA Cate]

You could make a spinnaker sock. Jim did. Out of spinnaker cloth seconds, and he fabricated the top hat (the scoop you downhaul) from fiberglass. Saves a bundle.

It looks like you're going to have to budget for at the minimum, a sheet clutch, a winch or a sock. (wingless' boat, above, would have the full complement of race boat winches.)

Ann

[JPA Cate]

Jim may have invented the spinnaker sock, made it out of spinnaker cloth seconds, and fabricated the bottom part from fiberglass. If you DIY it, you can save a bundle.

Or, you'll need a good quality rope clutch, one that you can release under load. Or, a new winch (could be 2nd hand). With the rope clutch, you could free the existing winch. If you're trying to race with only one cockpit winch, you are at a disadvantage when you have to come up into the wind.

Ann

[replusted]

Originally Posted by Limestone

I do dip-pole gybes to get around the baby-stay and clear the forestay. I am equipped with separate sheets and guys for spinnaker use, as well as a topping lift and downhaul for the pole.

This is not an answer to any of your questions but I'm curious about how you are doing a dip pole gybe when you have a babystay. Are you removing the babystay before you gybe the spinnaker?

[psk125]

Can you use one of the cabin top winches for the spinnaker sheet for the takedown? If not, a stopper on the spinnaker sheet (before it gets to the winch) would free up the primary sheet winch for the jib. Since the chute is coming down anyway, the spinnaker sheet shouldn't need adjusting with the winch.

[Limestone]

Originally Posted by replusted

This is not an answer to any of your questions but I'm curious about how you are doing a dip pole gybe when you have a babystay. Are you removing the babystay before you gybe the spinnaker?

Oh this is opening a can of worms. It depends. I’ve got three ways to pull off a gybe with consideration for the babystay.

The first way is to pull the mast end of the pole up about 12’ off of the deck, ease the topping lift, and point the pole 90° downwards so it rides right into its vertical storage chock on the mast. Then it’s two quick disconnects for the pole’s uphaul and downhaul lines, both of which get passed to the other side of the baby-stay and re-attached to the pole one at a time. Then the pole goes back up on the other side. This is my safest method and actually what I do the most. It actually doesn’t add a tonne of extra time to the gybe with a bit of practice. If I have two people on the foredeck, it doesn’t need to go right into the chock, but instead can be held still just under the baby-stay for the shackle change-overs.

Method two is to open the jaws for the sheet & guy, then detach the mast-end of the pole and walk it out around the baby-stay and back on the other side. Takes four big swings to make it work and then it’s done. This has a lot of potential for danger as the outboard end of the pole has to dance around the sheets & guys on both sides. Last thing I want is to have it knocked out of my hands and turn it into a swinging weapon. This is an only an option in my eyes on flat water with light, stable wind.

Last one is exactly what you said - removing the babystay. Tony Castro designed this boat and says that he added the baby-stay only to prevent mast pumping in heavy upwind weather. I know other CS34 owners who have completely removed theirs and have reportedly never experienced pumping even in a moderate blow. I personally don’t like taking it off for a few reasons- (1) its on turnbuckle and i’m too cheap to switch it to a quick-tension lever, (2) because the pad-eye is a tripping hazard when not attached, and (3) because I enjoy the element of safety that the baby-stay adds to the foredeck. It’s just one more thing to grab onto when moving around the foredeck in a blow. And I find that it really isn’t difficult to tack my 135% genoa around it.

But with all the above being said, it’s my personal opinion that taking off the baby-stay at the docks and lashing it to the chain plates with a bungie is the best option for doing a quick and proper spinnaker gybe. I just simple prefer to leave it on and deal with it.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by psk125

Can you use one of the cabin top winches for the spinnaker sheet for the takedown? If not, a stopper on the spinnaker sheet (before it gets to the winch) would free up the primary sheet winch for the jib. Since the chute is coming down anyway, the spinnaker sheet shouldn't need adjusting with the winch.

This.

Regarding dropping the spinnaker, with 3 or more people with one steering and one handling the halyard and sheets, ease or blow the guy (brace) to put the spinnaker behind the headsail, then ease the halyard as fast as the person (people) can gather it in on the leeward deck. If you have an extra person that you can put inside the companionway then they can drag the gathered spinnaker into the cabin for repacking. It’s like a letterbox drop, but under the boom.

You gybing sounds horrendous and prone to problems. Put a quick disconnect fitting on the bottom of your baby stay and remove it downwind. Or replace it with a thin Dyneema line that you can tension before turning upwind.