T-boning a Ferry in Sidney

[GILow]

Originally Posted by savoir

Shitting ones pants and making smart decisions rarely coincide.

True. So true. But I would have thought the boat would have tried to round up of its own accord?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[GILow]

Originally Posted by atoll

he must have been under the impression that power gives way to sail..................

Only if he had sailed on Sydney Harbour for less than five minutes.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[GILow]

Anyway, who the heck is Sidney?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by savoir

I do hope all you armchair experts realize that a 50 knot front blew through Sydney that day. Oh how I would love to line each of you up and send you out into 50 for the first time. It looked like this.


Attachment 98325

I have been out in a 50+ knot blow and it certainly is no picnic. But if I had seen that cloud front coming, I'd have dropped the main and runon my genny only.
By the way -don't ask me how I know this

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

Ok, seriously though... I don't understand why he didn't head up into wind? Am I missing something about the circumstances that makes this difficult or impossible? I'm not being rhetorical or sarcastic here, I just can't figure it out and I think I am missing something...

Because he would have been knocked down. He was running with far too much sail up, and DDW was the only way he could go with wiping out.

He couldn't even heave to, because he had let go of the gennie sheet . . .

There but for the grace of God . . . .

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Because he would have been knocked down. He was running with far too much sail up, and DDW was the only way he could go with wiping out.



He couldn't even heave to, because he had let go of the gennie sheet . . .



There but for the grace of God . . . .

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't follow. I thought if you headed up into the wind the sails just flog? Is there a situation where there is so much wind or canvas that this will not happen? I can see how the moment of rounding will cause the boat to heal alarmingly but that is all I would expect. Then I would imagine a hellish couple of minutes with flogging sails, whipping sheets and a few bruises as the sails are lowered. Is this not the case?

Matt


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't follow. I thought if you headed up into the wind the sails just flog? Is there a situation where there is so much wind or canvas that this will not happen? I can see how the moment of rounding will cause the boat to heal alarmingly but that is all I would expect. Then I would imagine a hellish couple of minutes with flogging sails, whipping sheets and a few bruises as the sails are lowered. Is this not the case?

Matt

I guess you haven't been in a squall of that magnitude with too much sail up -- I have -- heading into the wind, or indeed heading up at all, is not an option -- you will not "heel alarmingly", you will be knocked down. That's the problem.


Of course you can blow both sheets and steer -- that's what he should have done, since he probably couldn't get to the halyards. His sails would be destroyed, but he would avoid a collision, and the boat would probably stay on her feet. But the guy was apparently paralyzed with terror -- I can understand that.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I guess you haven't been in a squall of that magnitude with too much sail up -- I have -- heading into the wind, or indeed heading up at all, is not an option -- you will not "heel alarmingly", you will be knocked down. That's the problem.


Of course you can blow both sheets and steer -- that's what he should have done, since he probably couldn't get to the halyards. His sails would be destroyed, but he would avoid a collision, and the boat would probably stay on her feet. But the guy was apparently paralyzed with terror -- I can understand that.

Hmmm... interesting. The only time I got caught in that kind of blow I had seen it coming and doused the sails. I'll file this under things I should understand better before venturing too far from land. It seems so counter intuitive to me.

Maybe the trick would have been to let the boat get flattened then?

I've had that happen once on Dad's Van De Stat 27 and it was surprisingly manageable, cockpit stayed dry, we didn't ship a drop. The mast hit the water and a friend who was making coffee in the galley at the time just calmly walked up the cabin side as the boat went over. Didn't spill a drip and called out through the companionway to ask if this was normal boat behaviour? Good man under pressure that one.

We also got flattened on the Austral 20 with my brother in law at the helm, I'd just gone forward to pull down the jib as we approached the club (I'll never know where the wind that flattened us came from). Anyway, that was no great drama, the mast hit the water with a great big wet SPLAT and we turned 180 degrees. Would have been the perfect solution for this guy in retrospect.

I have much to learn I think.

Matt

[SoFla Sailor]

Originally Posted by atoll

he must have been under the impression that power gives way to sail..................

Funny you should mention it as the captain of the ferry made no attempt to avoid the collision. This and the fact he wasn't constricted to a deep water channel means he also failed in his responsibility to avoid the collision. I think they are both at fault.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[GILow]

Oops, double posted somehow..

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by SoFla Sailor

Funny you should mention it as the captain of the ferry made no attempt to avoid the collision. This and the fact he wasn't constricted to a deep water channel means he also failed in his responsibility to avoid the collision. I think they are both at fault.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I got flattened once in a blow like that (I know much better now). I think I would have taken the knock-down rather than the collision. If you'r hanging on tight - you'll make it and the boat will right itself

That was a high speed ferry. yes the captain should have made an evasion maneuver when he realized what was happening.

Actually surprising he didn't, most high speed ferries are very aware of smaller boats and steer away from them early - perhaps there was something on his port side that prevented him for doing that

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I guess you haven't been in a squall of that magnitude with too much sail up -- I have -- heading into the wind, or indeed heading up at all, is not an option -- you will not "heel alarmingly", you will be knocked down. That's the problem.


Of course you can blow both sheets and steer -- that's what he should have done, since he probably couldn't get to the halyards. His sails would be destroyed, but he would avoid a collision, and the boat would probably stay on her feet. But the guy was apparently paralyzed with terror -- I can understand that.

Re the other thread currently running about knives - this is the reason I have sheath knives permanently mounted at the helm and at the mast (plus the foldable I always carry). In this situation, you can't waste time looking for a knife, you have to have one at hand to cutaway the outhaul and let the main fly.

If you're lucky, you can then turn the boat and drop the sail before it is destroyed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

Hmmm... interesting. The only time I got caught in that kind of blow I had seen it coming and doused the sails. I'll file this under things I should understand better before venturing too far from land. It seems so counter intuitive to me.

Maybe the trick would have been to let the boat get flattened then?

I've had that happen once on Dad's Van De Stat 27 and it was surprisingly manageable, cockpit stayed dry, we didn't ship a drop. The mast hit the water and a friend who was making coffee in the galley at the time just calmly walked up the cabin side as the boat went over. Didn't spill a drip and called out through the companionway to ask if this was normal boat behaviour? Good man under pressure that one.

We also got flattened on the Austral 20 with my brother in law at the helm, I'd just gone forward to pull down the jib as we approached the club (I'll never know where the wind that flattened us came from). Anyway, that was no great drama, the mast hit the water with a great big wet SPLAT and we turned 180 degrees. Would have been the perfect solution for this guy in retrospect.

I have much to learn I think.

Matt

Well, you are probably right, that a knockdown would be better than a collision with a ferry.

This happened to me actually the very first time I was ever on a sailboat at sea -- in the '70's so decades ago. I was too dumb and inexperienced to recognize the squall coming. It was not my boat, and the owner, a Santa Rosa County park ranger, turned out to know even less about sailing than I did. I was steering, and when the storm blew up, he went below and left me alone to deal with the crisis.

I couldn't get to the halyards, I couldn't reef, and I couldn't blow the sheets and ruin someone else's sails. On top of the squall, the sea state was awful -- shallow water near the beach -- and I was afraid of getting rolled if I turned beam-on to the seas. All I could do was surf DDW and hang on for dear life. I tried to alter course a little to stay off the beach, and the boat went right onto her beam-ends. I thought we were going to run up on the beach, but just at the last moment the storm passed, the sun broke out, and I could head up onto a nice beam reach. At which moment the owner came back up and said "I'll take over now".

It was quite a day for one's first time at sea under sail


In general, try different points of sail in strong conditions, and you'll see what I mean. If you're hard-pressed DDW, then forget about it on any other point of sail -- you can't do it.

The corollary of that, however, is more pleasant -- if something breaks or jams, and you find yourself hard-pressed sailing on the wind or on a reach, just head off. It's incredible that what seems like a hurricane upwind, can seem like a placid lake, off the wind. The difference is incredible.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by atoll

he must have been under the impression that power gives way to sail..................

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by GILow

Hmmm... interesting. The only time I got caught in that kind of blow I had seen it coming and doused the sails. I'll file this under things I should understand better before venturing too far from land. It seems so counter intuitive to me.

Maybe the trick would have been to let the boat get flattened then?

As pointed out he couldn't turn into the wind and luff because getting into the wind with that much canvas was impossible. The sequence is you sheet in, turn up, bury the rail, lose your steering, and get caught in a cycle where the boat won't turn up and can't turn down either. You have no choice but to blow the sheets bear off.

This is a textbook example of why the time to reduce sail is when you first think you might need to, because doing so later might be extremely difficult. If I see a squall or a front coming, I reduce sail, period, for the simple fact that I don't know what it holds and I don't want to find out the hard way.

As for the collision, I assume that the sailor simply misjudged their respective courses and speed...not a hard thing to do when eyeballing things in conditions like that against a fast moving ferry. Probably thought he would pass safely in front, then realized he would not and blew the sheets to pass aft but by then it was too late. Pretty foolish...always pass aft of a boat like that if you think it's going to be even remotely close.