The loss of M/V Conception

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

Maybe some take their lead from the U.S. Navy, which has staggeringly draconian watches for deck crews, forcing them to sometimes stand 24 hour watches and even go many days in a row on only a few hours sleep. In peacetime. Is it any wonder they've bumped into other boats?

I've heard of bridge crews that were so understaffed that they were peeing into bottles because they couldn't even take breaks to go to the head.

And yes, these are also serious safety deficiencies that sometimes come back to bite the Navy as well as private companies. It has seemed to me that maritime fatigue in workboat accidents is becoming a bigger problem. I think a night watchman while at anchor has never been seriously enforced. I'm curious as to what the CG regulations actually require.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

How difficult would it have been to provision a passageway from the shower room through the forward bulkhead that allowed escape to the foredeck -- with a proper ladder or stairs?

I imagine that area was used as a chain locker, but wasn't there enough space for an exit? The chain locker could have been partitioned. There was enough sidedeck to allow passengers, once on deck, to move aft from the bow in any other type of emergency.

Why did the architect ignore this alternative, and instead choose to egress everyone into only one compartment - the galley - the most likely place to have a fire?

I had the exact same thought when I saw a similar diagram. It seems the shower room was a designated wet area intentionally walled off from the dry bunk area which sounds great for wetsuits and rinsing separate from sleeping if you don't consider emergency egress at all. Frankly, the shower room itself seems like another dead end danger area in the event of a galley fire.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Cpt Pat

Why did the architect ignore this alternative, and instead choose to egress everyone into only one compartment - the galley - the most likely place to have a fire?

You'll have to ask the prior owner who was the one to sketch out this setup and had it built. It passed annual CG inspections so it seems this is an obvious question only in hindsight. I dove the Peace's Ventura boat with its hot tub on the back deck. Don't even recall if there was a shower room. These boats were not for the dainty diver.

[JPA Cate]

The MV Conception was 40 yrs. old. Would its design not have to comply only with whatever rules were in effect at the time of launching? Practices aboard? Don't really know who's in charge or who makes and enforces the rules? Not the NTSB, I guess.

A64, you've done lots of diving, were there overnight watch keepers on those boats? I know it's not California, but I've never heard of it, though that could just be due to isolation.

Ann

[cyan]

Originally Posted by gamayun

You'll have to ask the prior owner who was the one to sketch out this setup and had it built. It passed annual CG inspections so it seems this is an obvious question only in hindsight.

You make a good point, which also relates to the regulation article you linked. On that subject, I seriously doubt that the the feared heavy regulations on diving itself will fall upon the free-spirit California community in any significant way. Divers take known risks and my life insurance agent reminds me of this. However, those 34 lost souls also took risks seemingly unknown to them, no doubt exhausted right after a night dive, sleeping on this evidently badly designed vessel, evidently missing an alert anchor-watch crewman.

I believe the US government would be much better if it were a fraction of its current bloated self... yet it also feels like such vessels would be much safer with better design certification and crew oversight. Finally, what is obvious in hindsight to the layman should have been obvious on inspection day to professional mariner, IMO. This was not the first boat fire in history.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I have five Halon fire extinguishers on my boat, three automatic that were there when I bought her, one in the engine compt. One in the Lazarette where the generator is, and a third in the electrical compt.
Then I have two hand held aircraft fire bottles, brought over from aircraft.
I also have a decently large Halotron (10 lb bottle) I believe that is a Halon replacement. It’s roughly half as effective as Halon. And of course several of the dry chemical ones or make the USCG happy.
Fire scares me, nothing else I can imagine will put me in the water faster and maybe injured than a fire.

I believe however that I’m several countries Halon is / was outlawed, I remember the day when the German’s showed up and confiscated our flight line fire extinguishers.

I don’t believe there is argument at all that Halon is bad for the ozone layer, that’s a certainty, but it was the use of tons of it daily in the production of electrical components for cleaning etc that was the real issue of CFC’s in the atmosphere, and even the lowly spray can contributed more than you might think.
However it’s just my opinion that the very little that was used to extinguish fires along with the life saving, but putting out those fires may have more than offset the Halon release in doing so.

I made that statement to the German that was taking the fire extinguishers, he was so proud to be protecting the environment. I asked him if he didn’t think that burning 15,000 lbs of fuel and high tech composites and the fumes they released wasn’t worse than a little Halon. I love and respect German’s, you could tell he was seriously considering that, they are a logical group of people, but he said I have no choice, it must go.

China is apparently producing and releasing tons of CFC’s again, against treaty, its source is so prolific that it’s been tracked I believe by satellite.

But the little bit of Halon that is released by fire fighting is small, almost non existent. It was the electronics industry washing circuit boards, air conditioning to some extent and more spray cans than you may imagine as it was the preferred propellant for spray cans.
However a flooded Halon system could very well have saved those people, it will absolutely extinguish most any kind of fire, and leave you plenty of air to breathe.
There are certain types of fires, hypergolics and maybe some flammable metals it may not extinguish, but those are very , very uncommon.

However I’ve been told that Halon in some countries is treated as if you were smuggling drugs, they will lock you up.

I agree entirely.


I have a SeaFire automatic halon system in my engine room, and I'm not taking it out unless someone forces me to.


It's good that we're protecting the ozone layer, but this kind of fanaticism is counter productive.


Notwithstanding the Chinese, the ozone layer is healing up nicely (https://www.space.com/39315-nasa-sat...zone-hole.html). What is effective policy is that which is directed at practices which spew CFC's indiscriminately into the atmosphere.


When I was a little boy, I had a toy jet airplane which was propelled by a jet of R12 Freon, which you loaded from a Freon can.



Banning tiny quantities of Halon used in critical fire suppression applications, where there is really no good alternative, which is released only in dire cases, is nuts.

[cyan]

Halon is great, but you really need to check the automatic systems for proper pressure as the gas can easily leak out without any sign.
In my aerospace days, we had a halon system on the roof of a test shack, connected to a big red mushroom panic swirch. Experimental high power electronics cooled with oil were inside a big plexiglass-enclosed test bed. One day a large snubber capacitor ballooned out like a football just before the whole works went up in flames and plasma. Somebody smashed the panic switch on the way out and I looked over my shoulder while running only to see a comical little pffft out of the halon nozzles. The whole shack burned down.
Moral of the story?
1. Check your halon pressure periodically.
2. Never do a high power test on a Friday.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by cyan

Halon is great, but you really need to check the automatic systems for proper pressure as the gas can easily leak out without any sign.
In my aerospace days, we had a halon system on the roof of a test shack, connected to a big red mushroom panic swirch. Experimental high power electronics cooled with oil were inside a big plexiglass-enclosed test bed. One day a large snubber capacitor ballooned out like a football just before the whole works went up in flames and plasma. Somebody smashed the panic switch on the way out and I looked over my shoulder while running only to see a comical little pffft out of the halon nozzles. The whole shack burned down.
Moral of the story?
1. Check your halon pressure periodically.
2. Never do a high power test on a Friday.

"Hot" tip (so to speak).



Mine has a gauge, and I do check it every time I check the oil and fuel filters.

[GordMay]

The Conception Incident Unified Command is relieved to report that search and recovery efforts today were successful in locating the last missing victim. DNA testing is still being conducted to confirm identities of 7 of the 34 victims recovered.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The Conception Incident Unified Command is relieved to report that search and recovery efforts today were successful in locating the last missing victim. DNA testing is still being conducted to confirm identities of 7 of the 34 victims recovered.

That's got to be a relief, though very sad one, for all involved.

Saw news today that CG has convened their marine board: https://maritime-executive.com/artic...dive-boat-fire. The article also provides a link to the CG marine safety bulletin that was issued on Tuesday with preliminary recommendations to passenger vessels. I can't copy the list but all of the items have been extensively talked about in the media and online.

[LAGOM]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Saw news today that CG has convened their marine board: https://maritime-executive.com/artic...dive-boat-fire.

I assume its hearings are public. I wonder if they will be televised as the Deep Water Horizon hearings were ?



-Sven

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...I just can’t imagine having a boat at anchor, with a hull full of passengers and thinking well, we’ll all turn in for a good nights sleep, that would be in my opinion criminally negligent.

Maybe it’s done, But I can’t imagine it.

"Anchor Watch" is a loosely interpreted requirement of COLREGS, that is required from all of us. Whether its 3 or 30 souls on board, for a 74 ft boat, it is not clearly defined

Most under crewed boats rely on Radar Alarms and Fire Alarms to provide that "Watch" when conditions are benign.

I don't know the operational itinerary of this liveaboard dive boat?

... whether they dove from the mother ship, or used dive tenders? Were the dives guided by a crew member and was it just a one or two night package

As I wrote on the other thread:

.... What is practical on a 75 ft boat at night?

Does the crew constantly wander down to the communal sleeping quarters?

The 5 crew are busy all day filling tanks, running dive tenders, guiding dives, prepping meals, repositioning the boat and performing regular Housekeeping plus required maintenance and repairs

Offering 3 or 4 dives a day plus night dive. I would expect that after the last dive at night and the boat and gear is secure, they probably are all in need of rest.

I doubt that they plan to have a dedicated night anchor watch who's shift begins at midnight.

Instead the captain would monitor the anchorage and decide if weather or other boat concerns will keep him up that night.

On larger boats with 10-16 crew it is practical to have a dedicated night deck watch usually from midnight to 7

That night watch has active duties all night from washing to prepping dive boats, anchor watch or lookout if captain ups anchor at midnight to reach his next dive destination

Night Watch has specific maintenance and safety jobs....... but they do not intrude into guest sleeping quarters checking for fires.

I hope forensic evidence determines the origin and cause of the fire and we all learn from practical recommendations to preempt a recurrence.

My guess is that these small dive and charter boats will soon be required to have better monitoring and Alarm systems similar to UMS (Unmanned Machinery Space) certification......to compensate for limited crew capacity.

The Smoke and Fire Detection System should have provided ample warning for the Captain to investigate at night.

A simple bed side relay and loud buzzer with "Acknowledge Button" linked to the fire alarm system is standard UMS requirement on super yachts (One in captains quarters. One in engineers cabin) .

That together with mandatory crew drills and Marine Emergency Duties training, could have made the difference!

[redsky49]

Regarding Halon systems discharge mentioned above, I have witnessed computer room discharges. It is not a subtle event, but a very dramatic loud event. The requirement to saturate the room in only seconds, and maintain that concentration for minutes results in an event you won't forget.
Halotron and its competitors are effective, just not as efficient, thus requiring more product (roughly twice as much) so that original Halon containers are insufficient capacity and must be replaced.

Agree regarding Unmanned Equipment Spaces monitoring. Relatively easy to retrofit to existing vessels. I admit to being stunned about lack of adequate emergency egress on these vessels. It seems that requirements are less stringent than land-based residential standards, instead of higher requirements as would be indicated at sea.

[Cadence]

I'm surprised she didn't have a no. of cheap smoke detectors in the berthing space.
They go off with a hint of smoke and will about scare the s--t out of you.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Cadence

I'm surprised she didn't have a no. of cheap smoke detectors in the berthing space.
They go off with a hint of smoke and will about scare the s--t out of you.

It's a really good question, considering how many times some of us change 9 volt batteries at 3 am due to low-batt chirping. It's a pain always met with a shrug... oh well, just better to be safe...
Hard to believe a commercial vessel wouldn't have at least as many detectors as a private one.