Unable to make progress upwind

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

I am using a ~120% Genoa, rather than a jib. Am I correct in thinking the Genoa is probably deeper cut and therefore harder to flatten out for upwind sailing?

Racer have different jibs and battens for different wind conditions.

If you aren't racing, it's really not a problem.

If you are, buy all new sails and get both light wind and heavy wind battens and sails plus know how much prebend to crank in for the different wind conditions

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

Thanks all for the suggestions so far! A couple follow-up questions:

People suggesting newer sails would help. Is this because newer sails are made of a better material, new sails could be cut shallower to focus on upwind performance, old sails lose their shape over time, or something else I haven't thought about? I am still using the original 20-yr old sails so it sounds like this is a likely factor?

I am using a ~120% Genoa, rather than a jib. Am I correct in thinking the Genoa is probably deeper cut and therefore harder to flatten out for upwind sailing?

I do in fact have a pretty big fixed propeller. I imagined this would have some small impact on speed, but didn't think that would hurt my ability to point up. Am I missing something there?

Bottom was cleaned a few weeks ago, so that shouldn't be a big deal I think.

I will be in Annapolis in a couple weeks, so that may be a good opportunity to get a racer to come out with me, thanks for that great suggestion!

Keep them coming if anything occurs to anyone. I know it's very tough to guess without seeing it in person, but I'm desperate

Old sails get baggy. Dacron sails get baggier than laminates. Flat sails are important. New sails and some advice on trimming them will make a big difference. I also would suspect that the 120% genoa, if old, is really the main cause.

Not able to go upwind if you WANT to go upwind and your boat should be able to do it, is a problem.

Another commenter mentioned a lot of windage and weight on and above deck as a possible issue. It certainly could be a factor.

Don't let the naysayers defeat you. Being able to climb to weather is really fun and you should not deprive yourself of that pleasure simply because others don't care whether they do it or not.

Sailing well is really satisfying. More people should try it.

[capn_billl]

I concur with the sails. New flat sails will give you surprisingly better performance.

[carlosproa]

Other than what everybody mentioned, has the boat been modified to where the CE or worse CLR has changed? Look if you have unusual parasitic drag.
And of course I am sure you have check your transom end - too much weight in the transom will kill your windward performance. An unusual large Radar Arch in the back can disrupt wind flow and add to drag. If you have your dinghy in Davits, make an experiment and plop it up front and see if performance upwind changes.

[JebLostInSpace]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

And of course I am sure you have check your transom end - too much weight in the transom will kill your windward performance. An unusual large Radar Arch in the back can disrupt wind flow and add to drag. If you have your dinghy in Davits, make an experiment and plop it up front and see if performance upwind changes.

Uhhhh, no I have not checked anything about my transom...

I do have a big arch just forward of the transom. I do carry my dinghy on davits. And, I installed a pretty big solar array extended even further aft than the davits.

I did not realize at all that too much weight on the transom is bad for upwind performance. Is that about literally pushing the stern too deep in the water, lifting the bow up too high? Does that affect the dynamics in the water in a way that's very bad for upwind performance? Or is it more about the windage aft? I'm going to be sad if the answer is I screwed myself by installing solar

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

I did not realize at all that too much weight on the transom is bad for upwind performance. Is that about literally pushing the stern too deep in the water, lifting the bow up too high? Does that affect the dynamics in the water in a way that's very bad for upwind performance? Or is it more about the windage aft?

Both

I'm going to be sad if the answer is I screwed myself by installing solar

Screwed yourself? No, you just made tradeoffs.


You could be like @Dockhead who took everything off his boat so he could sail to windward. Thing is, he has to make electricity out of dino juice.

[JebLostInSpace]

Yeah, the painful part is that I made this particular trade-off unintentionally. I don't have to burn dino juice to keep the lights on, but I do have to burn it to get upwind...

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

Uhhhh, no I have not checked anything about my transom...

I do have a big arch just forward of the transom. I do carry my dinghy on davits. And, I installed a pretty big solar array extended even further aft than the davits.

I did not realize at all that too much weight on the transom is bad for upwind performance. Is that about literally pushing the stern too deep in the water, lifting the bow up too high? Does that affect the dynamics in the water in a way that's very bad for upwind performance? Or is it more about the windage aft? I'm going to be sad if the answer is I screwed myself by installing solar

Oops, the plot thickens.

That weight aloft and out beyond the transom does hurt. It sinks the stern and adds weight in the ends so it increases pitching. Also it adds windage which you have to drag along going to windward. Also the weight aloft reduces stability. All bad from a performance standpoint.

None of these things makes a huge difference by themselves, but added together, (and added to the big fixed prop and the old, presumably baggy sails) they make a difference.

Look, we make these decisions and every one of them has two sides, good and bad. If you were really focused on the sailing performance side of things you would compromise on the arch, solar, dingy. But, while hurting your performance, you get the convenience of all the things you have hung on your arch. Like Thomm says, maybe you have to live with it, it's done now.

Get new sails, but don't look for miracles while you have the Beverly Hillbillys look astern.

BTW, dockhead had the exact right idea.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Racer have different jibs and battens for different wind conditions.

If you aren't racing, it's really not a problem.

If you are, buy all new sails and get both light wind and heavy wind battens and sails plus know how much prebend to crank in for the different wind conditions

I disagree with this, I'm definitely no racer BUT reality is theres times when you need to go to wind AND his boat should definitely be able to point higher than 45°awa. Old sails are very limiting here.

Sail shape is everything when going to wind. Having a furling main the sail shape isnt quite as good as I like but combined with my 110° quite flat jib we get pulled be along well upto 30°awa.

[cal40john]

I've taught a lot of sailing classes and most people had no idea how far in you had to sheet the sails to go upwind. The genoa should be sheeted in tight. There's a lot of variables as to how tight, most masthead rigs with a genoa will be almost touching the rig. The jibsheet car placement should be such that all the genoa telltales break at the same time.

The specs I found says it is a B&R rig with fathead main. The top can be twisted way out if you don't have enough sheet tension. The top leech main telltale should be breaking part of the time. You'll probably need to have the main car travelled up to weather to get the boom where it needs to be.

All the other posts about blown out sails, rigging not adjusted right, clean bottom are important also, but I'd start with making sure you have the sails trimmed correctly.

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

Uhhhh, no I have not checked anything about my transom...



I do have a big arch just forward of the transom. I do carry my dinghy on davits. And, I installed a pretty big solar array extended even further aft than the davits.



I did not realize at all that too much weight on the transom is bad for upwind performance. Is that about literally pushing the stern too deep in the water, lifting the bow up too high? Does that affect the dynamics in the water in a way that's very bad for upwind performance? Or is it more about the windage aft? I'm going to be sad if the answer is I screwed myself by installing solar

Both can have an effect unfortunately. I wonder what happens with the inverse T keel performance if you are heavy in the back end. You may want to check a owners forum and see what to look for.

[Sailor279]

Jeb —Here’s an old article from Practical Sailor which reviews the Hunter 410 (approx same age). Towards the end, there’s a section on Performance, which gives you an idea of how well it does at a few different angles. New boat, not liveaboard (Extra weight), new sails, etc. Not an upwind machine, but seems to perform decently when optimized.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...ats/hunter-410

In 10-12 kts, I’d sheet the heck out of the genoa until it’s pasted against your spreaders (without poking a hole in it above). That’s max inboard it can go. If it’s at the turning block, adjust the jib car aft to flatten it out and also be sure your traveler is up and boom on centerline. Matching the shape of main to gen is, generally speaking, optimal for beating.

I like the previous suggestion to pickup a crew who races and let him/her see what they can get out of it. Of course, you could ask a sailmaker but they likely have only one answer

Good luck!

[JPA Cate]

Hi, again, JebLostInSpace,

Yes, the best, most long lived sails you can afford, will help tremendously. Replacing the fixed 3 blade with a folding prop will help, but mostly in light to medium airs. It is a little like dragging a bucket full of water behind you when you're sailing, so a nice tight folder gets rid of most of your prop drag.

I think having the sailmaker come with you for the first sail with the new sails will make a noticeable improvement...and I bet s/he can give you some hints for efficient sail trim, too, if you ask.

Good luck with it, and keep working on it.

Ann

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

Uhhhh, no I have not checked anything about my transom...

I do have a big arch just forward of the transom. I do carry my dinghy on davits. And, I installed a pretty big solar array extended even further aft than the davits.

I did not realize at all that too much weight on the transom is bad for upwind performance. Is that about literally pushing the stern too deep in the water, lifting the bow up too high? Does that affect the dynamics in the water in a way that's very bad for upwind performance? Or is it more about the windage aft? I'm going to be sad if the answer is I screwed myself by installing solar

OUCH !! Now I understand.

that would explain what many cat people say that they cant go any higher than 45 app. Our average and optimal windwane angle on open ocean is 38app . And looks like because we have light dinghy and small solar and no arch and no generator and folding props and clean bottom and new sails and not overloaded.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Sails lose shape and it’s possible that they weren’t the highest quality to start with.
I doubt the prop makes and real measurable difference. The bigger headsail doesn’t help.

Large overlapping gennies, especially bagging out and past their prime, make it impossible to get upwind.



New sails will make a big difference here. A jib with less or no overlap will help a lot, giving up little in a reach. A better all around sail in my opinion for anyone who EVER needs to get upwind.


Propeller makes a BIG difference. A fixed prop, with shaft locked, can cost a knot of boat speed or more, hugely impacting upwind ability. Anyone who actually likes to sail needs a folding or feathering prop as a matter of high priority.


Boat speed overcomes leeway. If you are sailing at one knot, it doesn't matter what angle to the wind you are -- you are drifting off sideways downwind anyway. To get upwind effectively, you need speed.