Unable to make progress upwind

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

...and choosing destinations within the boat's sailing capabilities.

That's the one: If your destination is more than four hours to windward (three on a cold day) then you're going to the wrong place; just sail somewhere else instead.

[Fbfisher]

Start with new sails, I’m guessing you’ll be amazed at the performance boost. A friend bought a used Catalina 42, our boats were evenly matched - until he bought new sails. Now he points higher and sails faster. Guess I need new sails now too. FYI, I can sail 30 off the apparent wind, but I lose a lot of SOG doing so. My in-mast furling main is a few years old, but my 140 Dacron Genoa is 15 years old...year round sailing, I suspect it’s time for a new one. No doubt I’ll go faster and point higher

Cheers

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Old sails get baggy. Dacron sails get baggier than laminates. Flat sails are important. New sails and some advice on trimming them will make a big difference. I also would suspect that the 120% genoa, if old, is really the main cause.

Not able to go upwind if you WANT to go upwind and your boat should be able to do it, is a problem.

Another commenter mentioned a lot of windage and weight on and above deck as a possible issue. It certainly could be a factor.

Don't let the naysayers defeat you. Being able to climb to weather is really fun and you should not deprive yourself of that pleasure simply because others don't care whether they do it or not.

Sailing well is really satisfying. More people should try it.

Strongly agree with this. Sailing upwind is SAILING. You are using aerodynamic lift. Sailing off the wind can be done with drag alone. Drag is a dumb force, any baggy sail can generate it. LIFT, on the other hand, is a whole art.


To get upwind you need lift from sails, but also from keel and rudder. So this is an uphill battle on a boat with clunky underwater shape. But if you have a more or less reasonable underwater shape and you have sails with reasonable shape, you can do it.



To get lift from sails, you have to be able to shape them to balance lift vs drag. You have to be able to get them reasonably flat, but it's not just flatness -- it's control over shape. In different conditions, you need the sail to be flatter or fatter. Flatter is less lift but disproportionately less drag, so upwind you mostly need the sails pretty flat, but not too much -- you need control to get just the right shape to get the air flowing right and staying with the sail and not peeling off.



For me, changing from Dacron to laminate sails was an absolute revelation -- transformation. Laminate sails have virtually no stretch, so zero bagging out, and huge range of control of shape. I'll never go back to Dacron sails.

[dennismenace111]

Gentlemen don't beat to windward! Iron genoas are made for that purpose!

[peter loveridge]

I'm surprised no-one has pointed out that a slack forestay has a very bad effect on upwind performance, even in the most tubby type of boat. It is easy to fix and doesn't cost anything, try this first

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by peter loveridge

I'm surprised no-one has pointed out that a slack forestay has a very bad effect on upwind performance, even in the most tubby type of boat. It is easy to fix and doesn't cost anything, try this first

Just be sure not to tighten it by forestay alone and pull the rake out of the mast.

[Hudson Force]

As a long time cruiser aboard vessels that are not known for efficient upwind performance I've had to do my best to do what's possible to windward. I'm all in with the close sheeting, the quick tacks, the newer sails and other advice above, but I would add three other essentials.

First, the apparent wind is a moving target and you can not maintain the best heading in relation to the wind without attention to a wind indicator and steering to it.

Second, the wind speed is also varying. Make sure that you are pointing higher with a puff of higher wind speed and backing off as the speed decreases.

Third, swells or shorter period waves change your presentation to the wind. Just like the puffs of wind speed, it's best to head up a little with the rise of the wave and back off a little down to the trough.

I'm not aware of any autopilot that can sense these things as well as an experienced hand at the helm.

[roland stockham]

As others have said the place to start is sail shape. You say you have a 120% genoa, if this is an old furling sail my guess would be that that is going to be the problem. Even good new furling sails will loos windward ability compared to non-furlers (that's why you don't see them on race boats. A furling sail has to be a compromise between light and moderate wind performance, still has to work when part furled. All these factors make it the classic 'jack of all trades' and good at none. A common issue is that because it is the only sail it is used in heavy weather as well often stretching the sail and making it baggy which completely destroys windward ability.
My suggestion. First get some tape, electrical table will do, anything that will stick to the sails. Put 3 horizontal stripes on the sail at about 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 of luff height. Get out on reasonably flat water with a moderate wind and run as close to the wind as you can without stalling and loosing lots of speed. Take a photo of the sail from the midpoint. Then bring her up untill the sails start to back and stall and take another photo. Post the pics and we will be able to give constructive advice on sails.

[CarlF]

All sails look the same at a boat show. That’s why production boat builders always put the cheapest sails they can find on new boats.

A 20 year old OEM sail is not going to perform.

A new woven Dacron sail has excellent shape. Cheap Dacron stretches and is typically “blown out” in three years. This means the maximum draft in the sail has moved aft away from the mast destroying the “wing foil shape” you need to develop lift to windward.

Going to a laminate sail is certainly an option and will be recommended by most sailmakers because racers who buy new sails every year or so use them. It’s good business for sailmakers. Laminate sails rarely last more than 3 years before they start to delaminate or develop mildew stains. A sail of the highest quality Dacron (like Marblehead) can go 10 years in coastal cruising use while still retaining good shape.

Your new sails will come with telltales on both the mainsail and the genoa. that will tell you when you are trimmed correctly. For example, the telltales on the mainsail leach should stream aft and not hook to windward or leeward. Have the sailmaker also add a “draft stripe” of contrasting color on the sails that will let you see and then adjust the shape better. While usually used by racers, I find it invaluable going upwind in a cruising boat. You can even add your own temporary ones with tape. https://www.uksailmakers.com/racing-.../draft-stripes

Finally, in the best case you are unlikely in that boat to do more than 2.5 knots VMG to windward. Losing a knot to the propeller is a big deal. Do you lock your prop or let it freewheel? If you can let it freewheel, you’ll roughly cut the drag in half (Yanmar requires you to freewheel or it voids the warranty)

[a64pilot]

Then realize that if your a cruising boat, that usually means a couple of things,
First you can wait until a better wind window to sail, another few days or even a week in the anchorage won’t hurt, your cruising.

Secondly you can pretty easily drop a lot of money into new sails and the sky is the limit, with ever decreasing improvements as the money increases, or spend the money elsewhere.

Thirdly with a good prop that’s good for motor sailing, you can crank the motor, run at a high idle and go faster upwind than even the race boats and burn about a quart of fuel an hour and get a good charge on the battery and arrive with a tank of hot water for a shower, maybe make some water or ice too

You can tell what my choice often is, I can be making three kts and crank the motor, bump it to 1200 RPM and easily double my speed, or I could dump the Solar, strip everything off the deck, spend $10,000 on fancy laminate racing sails, and still not quite get the speed I had with all those creature comforts and the motor at 1200 RPM.
Of course my boat is not known for windward performance to begin with, but for some reason she does better then she has been given credit for.

[JimsCAL]

Could have missed it, but is this a furling main? If so, that will have an impact on upwind performance.

Before spending money on new sails, I would start by looking at rig tune and sail trim. Having an experienced sailor with some race experience come sail with you would be a good idea. Should be able to quickly assess what's working and what isn't.

[bongo]

First, I’d learn how to trim the sails properly.
Second, I’d have a really good sailor, or preferably a sail maker and a rigger look over your rig. When we bought our boat she would not point at all. The sails were blown out, and there was way too much weather helm. We ended up making modifications to the rig and got new sails from Carol Hasse, (she has files on every boat she has ever done, and draws from the feedback of each boat owner). Yes, we dumped a lot of money into her. But WOW, she now sails and points with the best of them, and there is almost 0 weather helm reducing rudder drag. We do have a feathering Kiwi Prop too.
Third, I agree with the motor sailing/charged battery/hot water idea too.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Laminate sails rarely last more than 3 years before they start to delaminate or develop mildew stains. A sail of the highest quality Dacron (like Marblehead) can go 10 years in coastal cruising use while still retaining good shape. . .

That was true about laminates 20 years ago, but is no longer the case. There has been a dramatic improvement in technology, with the laminates built up using autoclaves, better materials, taffeta covering for cruising use.



My carbon laminate sails are now 5 years old and have about 20,000 miles on them, including very hard use in strong conditions at high latitudes. I sail year round so they are on the furlers 12 months out of the year. We had them down a couple of weeks ago preparing for a race, and people were astounded at their condition -- they look virtually new, not a single spot of delamination or mildew. The shape is like new, too. I would be surprised if I don't get another 5 years out of them.


Of course, I take care of them. I fanatically avoid chafe and flogging. I have never washed them.



Laminate sails are costly, but if you are measuring the cost per year or per 10,000 miles of sailing while the shape is still good, they are much cheaper than any Dacron, which starts losing its shape the very first time they are unfurled. If I had Dacron sails, and changed them every time they started to bag out, I would have changed them 3 times already, spending more money than I spent on the laminates. I can't think of any reason for anyone who really cares about sailing, to use Dacron anymore.

[Nicholson58]

The OP noted his sails are +20 years old. These are without question well past it. It also seems he may not be highly experienced in trimming. Having a sailmaker and a successful racer out for a day sail will help a lot.

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That was true about laminates 20 years ago, but is no longer the case. There has been a dramatic improvement in technology, with the laminates built up using autoclaves, better materials, taffeta covering for cruising use.



My carbon laminate sails are now 5 years old and have about 20,000 miles on them, including very hard use in strong conditions at high latitudes. I sail year round so they are on the furlers 12 months out of the year. We had them down a couple of weeks ago preparing for a race, and people were astounded at their condition -- they look virtually new, not a single spot of delamination or mildew. The shape is like new, too. I would be surprised if I don't get another 5 years out of them.


Of course, I take care of them. I fanatically avoid chafe and flogging. I have never washed them.



Laminate sails are costly, but if you are measuring the cost per year or per 10,000 miles of sailing while the shape is still good, they are much cheaper than any Dacron, which starts losing its shape the very first time they are unfurled. If I had Dacron sails, and changed them every time they started to bag out, I would have changed them 3 times already, spending more money than I spent on the laminates. I can't think of any reason for anyone who really cares about sailing, to use Dacron anymore.

High altitude? So fresh water sailing? Or high altitude cold weather sailing? My code zero did not lived long in the tropics, so I am interested in understanding what loft or brand you used for your sails as I might take a chance again
Thanks