Unable to make progress upwind

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

The OP noted his sails are +20 years old. These are without question well past it. It also seems he may not be highly experienced in trimming. Having a sailmaker and a successful racer out for a day sail will help a lot.

Exactly. Excellent advice and to the point.

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

High altitude? So fresh water sailing? Or high altitude cold weather sailing? My code zero did not lived long in the tropics, so I am interested in understanding what loft or brand you used for your sails as I might take a chance again
Thanks

High latitude, not altitude.

[flyingfin]

OP did not mention the rig,,,,roller furling jib? Furling main? Many new boats come with these "conveniences" so upwind sailing is, and always will be, non-existent on those rigs. But they make great dock queens

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by dennismenace111

Gentlemen don't beat to windward! Iron genoas are made for that purpose!

So said William F Buckley, who preferred sitting below with his mates watching videos to actually sailing. Further, when they needed to go to weather, they did. It's just that he and his mates got off and flew to the destination while the paid crew sailed the boat.

So, in my view, that is not the saying of a sailor, but a privileged rich boy.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by flyingfin

OP did not mention the rig,,,,roller furling jib? Furling main? Many new boats come with these "conveniences" so upwind sailing is, and always will be, non-existent on those rigs. But they make great dock queens

No, roller furling jib or main do not prevent a boat from having good windward performance (although roller furling main does detract from mainsail shape and therefore windward performance, it does not eliminate it).

These sails can be and often are designed and cut to have good sailing shape and to provide good windward performance.

ALL the top racing boats in my area (except mine) have roller furling jibs and they sail well to windward. (I will say however that none of them have roller furling main sails).

More important are factors such as how well they are trimmed and how much the skipper wants to actually sail.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That was true about laminates 20 years ago, but is no longer the case. There has been a dramatic improvement in technology, with the laminates built up using autoclaves, better materials, taffeta covering for cruising use.

My carbon laminate sails are now 5 years old and have about 20,000 miles on them, including very hard use in strong conditions at high latitudes. I sail year round so they are on the furlers 12 months out of the year. We had them down a couple of weeks ago preparing for a race, and people were astounded at their condition -- they look virtually new, not a single spot of delamination or mildew. The shape is like new, too. I would be surprised if I don't get another 5 years out of them.

Of course, I take care of them. I fanatically avoid chafe and flogging. I have never washed them.

Laminate sails are costly, but if you are measuring the cost per year or per 10,000 miles of sailing while the shape is still good, they are much cheaper than any Dacron, which starts losing its shape the very first time they are unfurled. If I had Dacron sails, and changed them every time they started to bag out, I would have changed them 3 times already, spending more money than I spent on the laminates. I can't think of any reason for anyone who really cares about sailing, to use Dacron anymore.

Dockhead, I don't disagree with your points except the last sentence:"I can't think of any reason for anyone who really cares about sailing, to use Dacron anymore.

I have carbon membrane sails for racing (laminates) but I still use Dacron for cruising. It depends on how much you do. I cruise a few months out of the year, otherwise I am at the dock or racing full time. My Dacron cruising mainsail is 5 years old and cost $2200. My Carbon main is 3 years old and cost $5000 (yes, a bargain!) The cruising sail sees more abuse than the racing sail because with two of us we often have our hands full and things get done more slowly. When I need another mainsail for cruising I will buy another Dacron main (from China)

My #4 jib (our working jib) is also Dacron, it is 7 years old and I still consider it to be a great sail. It was $800 from North in Antigua. There is no way I would put an expensive laminated sail on in place of that. I wouldn't live long enough to get the return on investment, plus, the sails are not roller furling and the handling of the Dacron is easier. This is also true of our 110% Dacron Genoa.

Finally, this last year I added a new Dacron #3 Blade Jib for racing ($1100,also a bargain, from China). I will use this sail for one or two hours once or twice a year. It's shape is fine and it will last as long as the boat, so a laminated #3 makes no sense for me. If I lived and raced in San Francisco or the Caribbean, it would certainly make more sense and I'd have one.

For us, the cost benefit of Laminate sails just isn't there for some of the less used sails in our inventory, and frankly, some of us are limited in the amount we wish (or can) spend on sails. I'd reckon that your three carbon laminated sails cost more than my boat is worth, so we really can't buy a cruising inventory like that, but we still want to race competitively and cruise several months a year. Dacron allows us to do that.

BTW, how did the race go?

[sanibel sailor]

Top hamper is a serious concern.
Another issue besides the rear arch superstructure is if the cockpit has a large canvas structure. I see boats with a seven foot tall bikini, matching dodger, side curtains, etc.

Also many of these boats lack a back stay which hinders forestay tensión which is important for headsail shape and in turn windward performance.

I used to think I was a pretty decent sailor until I started racing. After eight seasons, I now feel adequate.

There’s an old saying. Difference between a powerboat and a sailboat. Powerboat uses the engine 100% of the time. Sailboats only 90%. If you are dissatisfied with speeds less than hull speed, that limits your sailing. If you cannot sail well deep downwind, and are very limited upwind, that does not leave much.

[KC375]

Originally Posted by dennismenace111

Gentlemen don't beat to windward! Iron genoas are made for that purpose!

Never sail to weather or in bad weather works great until it doesn’t.



When a weather surprise and an ill timed engine problem puts on a lee shore in storm with no iron gennie then being able to sail to weather will save your boat and maybe your life.


Being able to get the most out of your boat may give you pride in your seamanship but it’s also a safety thing.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That was true about laminates 20 years ago, but is no longer the case. There has been a dramatic improvement in technology, with the laminates built up using autoclaves, better materials, taffeta covering for cruising use.



My carbon laminate sails are now 5 years old and have about 20,000 miles on them, including very hard use in strong conditions at high latitudes. I sail year round so they are on the furlers 12 months out of the year. We had them down a couple of weeks ago preparing for a race, and people were astounded at their condition -- they look virtually new, not a single spot of delamination or mildew. The shape is like new, too. I would be surprised if I don't get another 5 years out of them.


Of course, I take care of them. I fanatically avoid chafe and flogging. I have never washed them.



Laminate sails are costly, but if you are measuring the cost per year or per 10,000 miles of sailing while the shape is still good, they are much cheaper than any Dacron, which starts losing its shape the very first time they are unfurled. If I had Dacron sails, and changed them every time they started to bag out, I would have changed them 3 times already, spending more money than I spent on the laminates. I can't think of any reason for anyone who really cares about sailing, to use Dacron anymore.

It isn't the amount of wind that destroys laminate sails, its the amount of sun. Five years of sailing around high latitudes is equivalent to a year in the tropics. After a year of cruising, my high tech UK genoa still held its shape, but looked like someone had blasted it with a shotgun. My replacement North dacron genoa wasn't as quick upwind after a few years, but it lasted 10 years RTW before I replaced it. I am impressed with the North 3di sails for both shape and UV resistance, but they would cost more than the boat.

[barnakiel]

As you can clearly make her go 45 off the wind and within 60 degs off the line then you are already nearly home. You can get an extra 10 maybe 15 degrees, and it is worth fighting for (mostly in the ego / skills department).


My tips:


below the waterline:



1) perfectly clean, antifouled, hull and appendages,
2) folding / feathering prop,

3) no head current,
4) slight head trim (ass up),
5) limited tilt (say max 10 degs).



above the waterline:


1) quality sails,
2) minimum drag (no hoods, arches, windmills, etc.),
3) moderate wind (I assume max 15kts in your boat),
4) adequate sheeting angles and sail trim (genoa track, traveler, etc.)

5) NO oversheeting, repeat NO oversheeting


skipper's attitude:


1) seek speed, build speed,
2) find the groove then stay in it (up in gusts, off in lulls),
3) seek VMG, not angles,
4) mark settings (better yet, with a felt pen)

Unfortunately to make plenty of improvement and fast, another H410 would be an optimum sparring partner. But perhaps there is someone around you with a boat similar enough and they too would like to have an upwind comparison session?


barnakiel

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by wingssail

So said William F Buckley, who preferred sitting below with his mates watching videos to actually sailing. Further, when they needed to go to weather, they did. It's just that he and his mates got off and flew to the destination while the paid crew sailed the boat.

So, in my view, that is not the saying of a sailor, but a privileged rich boy.

Couldn't agree more, Fred! I laughed myself silly reading his book about "the big one", his first transatlantic. Lots of chest beating and mutual declarations of heroism at sea, but then they went to bed and left the pro crew to do the night watches or heavy wx sailing.

What a phony! Good writer, though, but a personal phony.

Jim

[hamburking]

I had a 1994 Hunter 35.5 with similar wing keel (4.5 foot draft).

Like mine, your boat has a BIG main and a fractional, small jib. So trimming the main and getting a good sail shape is crucial. Its not just pulling hard on the sheet...its the traveler, vang, outhaul, leechline, halyard tension, and anything else that shapes the sail. The jib only accelerates the wind past the main, but needs to be trimmed as well.

I did my share of tacking (or more), and never had any complaints about the boats pointing ability or speed.

And finally, there is always a preferred tack. Wind shift, you shift.

You can do this....good luck!!!

[Perfusser]

I had similiar headway issues with my Tasman 26. I consulted a sail maker- who made a great main and number 2 headsail, which fitted the boat perfectly. The main had a maximised roach for light airs in winter. This made a huge improvement to speed and ability to point. I then installed genoa tracks- previously the blocks were attached to the toe rail. Another large gain in pointing ability. And finally, installed the folding propeller, another 1/2 knot gain in VMG.

[rhubstuff]

The fixed propeller is definitely slowing your boat's speed by a knot or more. This decreases the apparent wind speed, which in turn decreases your ability to point into the wind. If you want to check this, go motor sailing and adjust your throttle to equal the speed that you would make in calm water (to neutralize the effect of the propeller) and see how well she points then. That said, there is nothing wrong with motorsailing. If you roll up the jib and trim the main in hard you can go to weather very nicely with the engine at about 1/2 to 3/4 speed. If motorsailing can make the difference between making port in good time versus slogging along for hours, why not? All that said, a folding prop and new sails will make you think you have a new boat.

[sanibel sailor]

When racing, a folding feathering prop allowance is 6 secs/ mile here. Does slow you down but not a full knot