Unable to make progress upwind

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

High altitude? So fresh water sailing? Or high altitude cold weather sailing? My code zero did not lived long in the tropics, so I am interested in understanding what loft or brand you used for your sails as I might take a chance again
Thanks

Latitude, not altitude. I've been with these sails from 50N to 71N, from 30E to 30W.

The sailcloth is Bainbridge carbon/twaron laminate with dyneema taffeta both sides.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

When racing, a folding feathering prop allowance is 6 secs/ mile here. Does slow you down but not a full knot

That was true back in the early 80s when I was single hand racing in the SF bay area. However, when I made the switch from a fixed two blade to a folding two blade and accepted the 6 second/mile handicap hit, well, I went from an also ran to winning on a regular basis. To me this indicates that the handicap does not accurately reflect the performance change. Yeah, I know, anecdotal evidence, but it made a believer outta me!

And of course, the speed gain isn't uniform over the whole speed range. Prop drag is most evident in the mid speed ranges... at low speeds skin friction outweighs prop drag and as you near hull speed, wave-making drag absorbs more energy than anything else. In those intermediate ranges is where the gains are more evident, and that is where lots of sailing is done.

In review, new sails and a folder will make startling improvements in upwind performance... and of course a clean (really clean) bottom is always a big factor. Takes surprisingly little fouling to make a big difference upwind. Having been cleaned a few weeks ago ain't a great confidence builder to me!

Jim

[johnn33]

May I suggest
1 Crew a friend who races with success in a monohull. Watch and ask how he adjusts and tensions his rig for the first windward leg from the start; how he adjusts his backstay and runners; how he choses his jib size and mainsail reef (if any). His prop will fold, (or be lifted up in expensive hulls).


2 He will sail upwind by following the four telltales on the jib luff. Ask how he sets the jib sheet blocks, and sometimes barber haulers (look at the Harken stuff).


3 Someone will trim the main sheet and main traveller to match the puffs. Incidentally you always luff in the puffs,


There is more here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Offshore-Ra.../dp/1408157284


Windward by day and by night is marvellous
John

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by sanibel sailor

When racing, a folding feathering prop allowance is 6 secs/ mile here. Does slow you down but not a full knot

Plus I always see that folders / feathering are great in light airs, but I’ve not found that to be true, if your sailing at three kts the prop doesn’t make much difference, but if your sailing at seven kts it sure does. That half kt you get at seven kts doesn’t happen at three kts

[Tetepare]

As racers know, all the little stuff adds up, not just speed but pointing as well.

Cunningham, outhaul, leech line, mast rake, etc. even with old sails performance can be improved by optimizing sail shape.

[Peregrine1983]

Get new sails. It will make a huge difference. Did for us.

[SurlySailor]

One other thing to consider when sailing upwind is whether you are sailing the boat totally overpowered and heeled over or if you are sailing flat. Flat is fast and you can gain a lot of speed by shortening sail if short handed. Another thing to consider is if you are stalling your sails, having done a lot of racing you can get your self into a stalled condition when trying to point where the airflow over the foils isn’t flowing smoothly. I find the best remedy to this is to reset, sail a little flatter loosen everything to where I am almost luffing and retriming. Last thing to check is the effect of current are you sailing in high current waters? What is your SOG vs Boat Speed.

[sanibel sailor]

Originally Posted by johnn33

3 Someone will trim the main sheet and main traveller to match the puffs. Incidentally you always luff in the puffs,

Not quite true in terms of luffing. You head up as an increase in wind speed results in a change in apparent direction, what is called a "velocity lift." You head up into the new apparent wind, but not to the point of luffing unless you are overpowered, and be prepared to head down when the puff eases or you will be luffing. If you are overpowered, sail to the angle of heel and have someone playing the main traveler, or better yet, reduce sail.

Incidentally, it is the opposite when sailing downwind, you head down in the puffs and up in the lulls to maintain apparent wind speed.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Plus I always see that folders / feathering are great in light airs, but I’ve not found that to be true, if your sailing at three kts the prop doesn’t make much difference, but if your sailing at seven kts it sure does. That half kt you get at seven kts doesn’t happen at three kts

Actually I find the opposite is true: excess drag is more damaging in light air.

When you have very little power in the sails there is not much to waste on parasitic drag, such as an open propeller.

Yes, it does not slow you a large amount, but in racing a small difference is a big difference at the finish line. Cruising too, if you lose 2/10 of a knot while potentially sailing at 3 knots it will delay your 100mile trip by a couple of hours, potentially extending it into the darkness. Of course we don't do that while cruising, few of us have that patience. We just start the engine. Still, it is a factor.

On the other hand most of our boats are limited by hull speed, and in a bigger breeze we often have excess power we can't use anyhow, so the open propeller doesn't result in much actual loss. Still, in racing, a few yards on a 1.5 mile beat does make a difference. While cruising, uh, so what?

[MicHughV]

you can sheet the genny up to the spreaders tip, but it won't help if you have a wide beamy boat like the Hunter as the distance from mast to edge of boat is large and causes the genny and the sheet lead block location to be unable to be sheeted in close to the centerline of the boat where you would want it. It is that wide angle, in addition to other sail issues mentioned here that will affect your "pointing ability".

Some boats have sheet block track, others use the toerail as a block attachment point, which off course, is as far out there as to make high pointing angles improbable.

You may have better windward performance with a smaller jib, if you can narrow the sheeting location.

[MicHughV]

there are some ways to bring the genny clew in closer to the centerline of the boat if you have a beamy boat, to get a tighter sheeting angle, but unless you are racing, it's a lot of work, as it requires a 2nd sheet or a moveable snatch block on the actual sheet line, which you can pull into the center of the boat..but...might be worth a consideration..

[johnn33]

I should have said it better

Quantum https://www.sailingworld.com/how-to-leverage-puffs/

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

there are some ways to bring the genny clew in closer to the centerline of the boat if you have a beamy boat, to get a tighter sheeting angle, but unless you are racing, it's a lot of work, as it requires a 2nd sheet or a moveable snatch block on the actual sheet line, which you can pull into the center of the boat..but...might be worth a consideration..

The difficulty is that the shrouds may be outboard, on the rail, and the sail (genoa) cannot be pulled in closer than that regardless of what you rig to pull it to the center of the boat.

This gets worse when the boat is fractionally rigged, as is OP's. The shroud base, from the mast to the rail, is closer to the front of the boat making the angle wider (wider sheeting angle). An ideal sheeting angle used to be 8 degrees but if you look at todays highest performing boats, like TP52, I think it is tighter than that.

So, on a fractional boat a non overlapping jib allows tighter sheeting angles. The non-overlapping jib can be sheeted to a track well inboard and achieve those 8 degree angles.

This is why I recommend a 110% jib for this boat, and even then the jib block must be carefully placed, and the sail artfully cut to avoid the shrouds and spreaders.

Interestingly, this issue is the MAIN reason for modern, laminated, Code Zero sails (not the kites called code zeros). Since many of the modern boats have non overlapping sails and they have wide shroud bases a genoa is out of the question for them. In order to get some power in light winds, and sail higher than a spinnaker allows, they developed a very flat flying sail, put on a removable roller on a prod way at the front, and this sail can pass outside the shrouds and still be sheeted quite far in. However, if you have, as I do, a very narrow shroud base and three spreaders, you can set a 150% genoa and sheet it awesomely far in and point higher, sailing faster, than many newer boats. And when I shift to my blade headsail, which sheets in at about 7 degrees and is flat as hell, we are rockets up wind, sailing high and fast. (Of course I designed my newest main to be equally flat and carry a huge roach, none of this is good for cruising)

[MicHughV]

yes, I agree, trying to get a genny in would not be practical on a Hunter, but a jib might be able to do the trick.

Still, one has to allow for the butt of the boat dragging in the water due to dinghy arches and the like.

Hunters, seem to be, how to put this, designed to be all things for all people.

They are designed for interior comfort, first and foremost, rather beamy and boxy to generate interior space....shower AND bath..etc,etc,etc and sailing prowess is not their best selling point, especially to weather.

I have been on quite a few Hunters, their interiors are certainly opulent, especially their latest models, a literal Winnebago on water, massive freeboard, etc, but darn nice on the inside, indeed, very comfortable.

I have never quite understood Hunter's preference for the B and R rig, which requires a "bendy" mast... the "bendy" mast to my eye is disturbing..

I will allow for Pettengill's efforts notwithstanding, with Hunters Child.

In the past, I have often raced against a variety of Hunters in local offshore races. As long as they are not hard on the wind, they have a reasonable turn of speed.

For the B'mas, a perfect boat....!!

But, getting back to the topic, the sails are apparently quite old, and once a sail gets to the point of being too baggy, there is little one can do to shape the sail by use of tracks blocks, etc.

Another final piece of advice for the OP. I have seen many sailors over tighten the leech line on a baggy sail to reduce leech flutter, which results in a nice J-hook edge to the leech, a speed killer, if there ever was one.

It's also possible to get an older sail " re-cut", but this would require a trip to a sailmaker to assess.

Boat...Bring On Another Thousand......

[Rick Williams]

I concur with new sails. I have a heavy old 38' ketch with a 5' draft and we were always dog last in our sailing club races until I replaced the sails. It made a world of difference. I had the same experience with going to windward but now it's so much better. My sailmaker stretched my 20 year old 110 genny out on the floor of his sail loft when I asked him to replace the foam leading edge and sun cover and he drolly noted that "what you have here is a pillow case."
He was right and the money was so worth it.
The old sails are being repurposed into sunshades for the back deck...