Unable to make progress upwind

[jim King]

When I replaced my 20 year old sails on my Hunter 34 I went from 45 degrees close hauled to close to 30 degrees. New (flat) sails can make all the difference. I also went from being the last in our beer can races to first. An other item to pointing higher might be to take the main sail traveler to a bit past the mid point. Try testing various positions with your cars (maybe further back) as well.
cheers,
jim

[MicHughV]

yes, many years ago, I too ordered sails from Hong Kong, the price was certainly attractive, and the stitching well done, but the fabric was questionable.

These days there is a myriad of sail cloth to chose from. Selecting the right material should really be done under the auspices of a sailmaker...he will suggest the appropriate cloth according to your needs...or perceived needs...and maybe even suggest a cloth.

[MicHughV]

the questionable fabric from Hong Kong is likely a clue to their "attractive" pricing...

[Paul J. Nolan]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

As a long time cruiser aboard vessels that are not known for efficient upwind performance I've had to do my best to do what's possible to windward. I'm all in with the close sheeting, the quick tacks, the newer sails and other advice above, but I would add three other essentials.

First, the apparent wind is a moving target and you can not maintain the best heading in relation to the wind without attention to a wind indicator and steering to it.

Second, the wind speed is also varying. Make sure that you are pointing higher with a puff of higher wind speed and backing off as the speed decreases.

Third, swells or shorter period waves change your presentation to the wind. Just like the puffs of wind speed, it's best to head up a little with the rise of the wave and back off a little down to the trough.

I'm not aware of any autopilot that can sense these things as well as an experienced hand at the helm.

Well, here's a man who knows a thing or two.

Look, OP, you're at a point where you can identify a problem, but not the solution. So you are part way home. At the risk of being forever stamped "The Laser Guy" as a solution to every problem (Your backside itches insanely? Get a Laser!) I must suggest getting a small, inexpensive one-design boat and campaigning her for a season. You'll quickly gain the experience to diagnose the problem plus a lot more experience to boot. There are many factors here; in my opinion, all should be attacked, but they should be priorized.

1) Design. Do you have a short, fat, shoal boat with a fixed three-bladed prop suitable for a tugboat or a long, narrow deep boat with no prop or aperture at all? A Cape Cod cat or a six meter? It makes an (insurmountable) difference.

2) Sails. I see boats for sale made in the '70s having "original sails" as is that were some kind of benefit. The inexperienced sailor cannot believe the difference good, new, quality sails make.

3) Bottom. If your bottom looks like a relief map of Arizona, you gotta problem.

4) Skill. It takes more skill to sail well up wind than across the wind. Sailing dead downwind takes skill. Try to avoid it.

All you need to do is gain some experience and you will solve this problem yourself. Good luck.

Paul

[Dave Isom]

I sail an Adams 40, with a 5 foot,3/4 keel, skeg hung rudder and a largish fixed blade prop.
I’ve had it for over 20 years and sailed around the world from Australia mostly(about 90%) downwind. With good sails sheeted in hard, clean bottom the best I can do is about 40 degrees to wind max., although other Adams with fin and or deeper keels are faster and closer to wind. If I must go to wind ward I’ll often drop the Genoa ,put a reef in the main( my sails are quite baggy after the circ.) sheet the main in hard but not dead flat, and motorsail about 30-40 degrees off the wind and have some speed and certainty. I do get much closer to wind doing that and it satisfies my impatience to get there ! It’s a trade off. My boat is fantastic on a reach or downwind so I try to wait for the right weather. Worth trying...and all of the other previous comments are relevant too. Good luck,hang in there.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

the questionable fabric from Hong Kong is likely a clue to their "attractive" pricing...

sorry...gota disagree

the one time i purchased a sail ex hong kong, it was made from exactly the same contender cloth that the local lofts were using...and better quality thread

cheers,

[Davo1404]

How much forestay sag do you have? Excessive sag will decrease your pointing ability. Also a large fixed 3 bladed prop will slow you down.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by Paul J. Nolan

Well, here's a man who knows a thing or two.

Look, OP, you're at a point where you can identify a problem, but not the solution. So you are part way home. At the risk of being forever stamped "The Laser Guy" as a solution to every problem (Your backside itches insanely? Get a Laser!) I must suggest getting a small, inexpensive one-design boat and campaigning her for a season. You'll quickly gain the experience to diagnose the problem plus a lot more experience to boot.

I went through the thread to find this one. If possible, getting a dinghy and becoming proficient, ideally through racing, will convert theory into genuine 'feel for the boat' very effectively. Try sailing a Laser upwind sitting in the back or downwind in a blow sitting near the mast.... many 'mistakes' in a Laser you won't make twice and feel for a Laser is directly transferable to anything larger. On a yacht your personal location onboard will not be too critical but then you're thinking equipment, etc. Same thinking can be applied to sail trim, sailing through waves, etc.

I effectively sail single handed and am forever grateful for the dinghy start (indeed: Laser). So now the sailing bit i can manage without thinking about it too much (I cruise, retired from racing) and can focus on other things which a bigger boat/longer trips call for.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

the questionable fabric from Hong Kong is likely a clue to their "attractive" pricing...

Most sail making factories in the Asia specifically list which cloth manufacturers and lines of sailcloth they use in their sails and quite often they allow the cloth type to be selected during the quotation and order process. Bainbridge, Challenge, Dimension‑Polyant are internationally recognized sailcloth manufacturers and are typically used in Asian sail factories, but be sure to check!

The savings one sees from Asia is in the labor, not the materials. Labor on a cut and sew sail is about 2/3 of the cost of the sail so reduction in the labor rate is significant.

Asian (or any non local sailmaker) also saves money by not providing the pre-sales and after sale service, including consulting, designing, and test sailing.

And the cost of an international loft network is also avoided when the only facility is a big room full of machines and low wage workers.

[MicHughV]

If you are the manufacturer of a sailboat, which sail cloth will you specify? The good stuff? Mediocre stuff ? Cheap stuff ?? Especially, considering your are building a Hunter, not exactly the cadillac of boats.

Yes, the Asian labor market is likely a cost savings, but it does still incur a transportation cost. I live on the east coast, so it comes a long way.

My sails from Asia were good, not great, but good. Being on a budget, like most sailors, meant that my selection of cloth was driven by budget concerns, but clearly a savings over locally made sails.

I have also had sails made by a local sailmaker. Yes, they will come out to inspect, review and modify, so there is that.

My Asia sails gave reasonably good service for the first few years, but became noticeably saggy after that. Replacement was done in bits and pieces as finances allowed.

You can even buy "sailmaking kits" for the DI-Y-er....I knew one person to do this. Not a project I would undertake.

Finally, as another poster pointed out, dragging a big 3 blade prop around your butt will certainly affect your performance, as will a saggy rig. Without a backstay, tensioning your forestay on a B&R rig ??? Rigs do get "sloppy" after a period, and require attention.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

...You can even buy "sailmaking kits" for the DI-Y-er....I knew one person to do this. Not a project I would undertake...

I have made several sails however none from a "kit". I bought the cloth and other supplies, a sailrite machine and designed them on a spreadsheet. They were fine, including a 300sq ft Kevlar tri radial main which was pretty fast if not easy to trim.

I had no sewing or sailmaking experience.

Making your own sails is a very rewarding project to undertake.

Although I now buy my sails(from Asia) I still do all my own repairs and all my canvas work. It is extremely rewarding when you can repair a torn sail yourself, at sea, between races or recut a sail to improve the shape.

[MicHughV]

I bought a heavy duty sewing machine for the specific purpose of sail repair, but my efforts were....er....um....shall we say....not pretty.

So I turned my efforts to making canvas shade covers for my boat. Once I made one, I could not stop, so eventually covered my boat from stem to stern in shade coverings. These were all supported by pvc tubes....at anchor I was undeniably a " cool dude"...

I sewed new covers for main and mizzen, including my boat name across the main boom cover......and then I called it a day. The sewing machine was put into hibernation, never to see sunlight again....a sad tale, yes, know.

[NormanMartin]

I have skippered a Hunter 410 on training cruises a couple times. They are nice cruising boats but not very weatherly by my experience. Super cruisers, though. I have a very weatherly boat and that comes with some shortages... no head room, no pressure water, reefer, etc. As the old song said, "love the one you're with."

Two things I suggest: better sails and a low drag prop. Increase thrust and reduce drag.

Other considerations are to clean the bottom often and reduce the weight and windage of cruising gear.

[CaptJPMcGuire]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

Thanks all for the suggestions so far! A couple follow-up questions:

People suggesting newer sails would help. Is this because newer sails are made of a better material, new sails could be cut shallower to focus on upwind performance, old sails lose their shape over time, or something else I haven't thought about? I am still using the original 20-yr old sails so it sounds like this is a likely factor?

I am using a ~120% Genoa, rather than a jib. Am I correct in thinking the Genoa is probably deeper cut and therefore harder to flatten out for upwind sailing?

I do in fact have a pretty big fixed propeller. I imagined this would have some small impact on speed, but didn't think that would hurt my ability to point up. Am I missing something there?

Bottom was cleaned a few weeks ago, so that shouldn't be a big deal I think.

I will be in Annapolis in a couple weeks, so that may be a good opportunity to get a racer to come out with me, thanks for that great suggestion!

Keep them coming if anything occurs to anyone. I know it's very tough to guess without seeing it in person, but I'm desperate

We sailed an old Irwin 38 center cockpit for 15 years as east coast cruisers. Maine to Florida. Had all the electronics and HAVC systems a real home on the water. Lady sailed off the wind just fine for us. Going up wind —- when I raced Ensigns and J/24s I could go up wind but with a Crusing mentality I could care less. We ran the Perkins 4-108 all the time�� It kept us on a very good 30 -40 ish course and gave us all the comfort of ice. Water, air conditioner all electronics and autopilot. Carried I think 100 gallons burned 1.5 an hour motorsailing at a little over 800RPM.
ENJOY THE JOURNEY
PS sold her 8 years ago bought a GrandBanks 42. Goes great to windward at 8 knots a 1 gal per mile.
Yep that straight line sailing ain’t cheap ��
PS the ps. Just bought a class B camper. No more wind and weather worries 18 MPG can always find a safe harbor in a storm HOLIDAY INN
@ 75 years it has been a fun journey. Now to survive CIVID 19 to travel inland ��

[sanibel sailor]

When you give up sailing to windward, a trawler becomes much more attractive.

A friend pointed out a natural progression...
Roller furling
Electric anchor windlass
Cockpit enclosure
Electric Winches
Trawler