Unable to make progress upwind

[MicHughV]

y'know, you can drape a dress over a pig....but it will remain a pig...

Hunter's have many positive attributes, but sailing to weather is likely not it's best point of sail, but this could be said of many boats.

Sailing to weather efficiently requires the whole package. The boat, the keel, the prop, the sails, the experience, etc, etc, there is not one single component here.

Getting new sails will " improve" your current performance, but don't expect your Hunter to suddenly morph into a race boat. See above.

Sailboat speed is an arbitrary thing. Sailboats are not very fast to begin with. Let's face it, if you are moving along at 5-6 knots, you are pretty much "cruising along".

Going to weather is only one direction, comprising a 1/3 of your of your options, and so, if you need to have the engines ticking over, by all means, do so...

20 year old sails have probably exceeded their lifespan and if your budget can afford it, by all means consider some new sails. Will you see an improvement, off course, yes, an "improvement" but not a "miracle"

Go see a sailmaker. The sailmaker will be best positioned to steer you in the right direction regarding type of cloth, type of sail, the cut, $$$, etc, etc.

Finally, a new set of sails, is a good selling feature, should you ever decide to sell the boat, so there is that aspect too.

[MicHughV]

there is a thread on here about a guy wanting to sell a brand new sail..
might fit ?? Good price....$1,100

see below


BRAND NEW Roller Furling Jib 34’-7”...

[dfelsent]

Hunter 410 SD has the same base PHRF handicap as a Little Harbor 38. Decent performance.
Perhaps the OP could post photos of the sails as seen from below showing the shape (if there are draft stripes?). I think it highly likely that the original 20 year old sails are the place to start.
For an idea of what sails that are in good condition look like when trimmed out take a look at

https://www.uksailmakers.com/cruisin.../draft-stripes

[sanibel sailor]

The 410 is actually 43-1/2 feet LOA. It has 7 feet more waterline than the Little Harbor 38.

His headstay length is ~50 feet. The sail linked is a good bit too small

[billve]

Jeb,


As you've seen, there are many, many things you could do, and even more opinions about what you should do. Most of the stuff already suggested makes a difference, but how much? I bet that your head is spinning a bit by now, right? ;-)



What matters most -- what gives you the most benefit for the least investment -- is the more important question.


Your boat is perfectly capable of achieving good VMG. Don't listen to anyone who says otherwise. (Even with all that heavy stuff on the stern.)


Start by learning how to properly trim the sails that you have. Even all blown out, they'll do just fine for cruising. (Yes, new sails would be better, but if you trim them poorly, you won't feel like you got your money's worth.)


Focus on speed. To reduce leeway, you need speed -- nothing else will do. Your keel is a hydrofoil, just like your sails are airfoils. If you don't get the water flowing over it, it won't do it's job, which is to REDUCE LEEWAY.


To maximize speed, you need to learn how to trim both sails correctly for a beat, and then drive the boat at precisely the correct angle to take advantage of that. Your telltales will be streaming when you're doing it right.


Remove all of the twist out of your main. It's an old sail, so sheet it down as tightly as you can. When sailing to windward, the main sheet's job is solely to control TWIST. Your boom will most likely be a half-inch off of your bimini or dodger. Now, center the boom using the traveler. (I hope that you have a traveler... If you don't, just center the boom with the sheet as best you can, and trim the vang as tightly as you can.)



Your genoa needs to be sheeted in as tightly as you can. If you can adjust your genoa fairleads, move them a bit aft. Hopefully, they are somewhat inboard -- that makes a huge difference. The goal is to get the genoa to be as close to the shrouds as possible. That means ALL of the genoa. On my Catalina cruiser, the foot of my 155% genoa is pretty flat and is touching the shrouds, and the car is far enough aft that the leech is about an inch off of the shrouds at a point higher up in the rigging where it crosses from aft to ahead of the shrouds.


Once the sails are set, you then need to drive such that you keep the genoa telltales flying.


Note that you can't just tighten up all the sails and expect to go fast. You need to bring them in most of the way, point in the right direction, and build speed. Only when you are going at a pretty good speed should you finish off the trimming. You'll find that if you allow the outer telltales to luff just a little bit initially, you'll accelerate. (That's called "footing off.") When you speed up, you can then point just a tiny bit higher and fly your telltales "in the groove." You'll find that you are pointing higher, going faster and giving up less leeway.


To learn more, buy NorthU's book on Trim, or better yet, buy "Getting Started in Sailboat Racing," 2nd Edition, by Adam Cort and Richard Stearns. Even though it's a book about racing, it's really a book with just enough of everything that you need to know about sailing (plus some racing stuff). LOTS of great sail trim advice! And, it's a reasonably short book.



Keep in mind, most cruisers want to get where they're going, so speed matters, even to cruisers! ;-)
Besides, speed is fun!



The folks who suggested going out with a sailmaker or a good racer also have a good idea -- there's nothing quite like getting out there with someone who can help you figure out how to improve your VMG.


I hope that this helps. Just keep it simple. When you find yourself swimming in all the ways you can improve boat speed, take a breath and focus on making the best SPEED that you can with what you have!


-BVE

[barnakiel]

Yep.


And avoid excess heel as much as you avoid being under-canvassed.


Each design has its own 'groove' and you want to find yours.


b.

[MicHughV]

yah, you can always tell when you are trimmed correctly going to weather, by " feeling" the wheel....if your rudder is way over....no good....just a tad.....good...you should feel some pressure at the wheel, but not to much...you should be able to lock the wheel and walk away from the wheel and the boat should be able to steer itself...then you are trimmed right...takes a bit of practice to get it all " dialed" in....

another tip, you can wrap some tape around your wheel over the center, when you get it right...so the next time you do it. just center the tape over the pedestal...you should have two pieces of tape, one for each tack... the tape, you will find will be just to the left and right of the " center".....

lastly, with a marker pen, you can draw a circle around your sheet lead, at the snatch block or at the winch, once you have it all " dialed" in....so the next time, just pull in the sheet until your marks are in their appropriate spot..

[JebLostInSpace]

Sorry all for not responding - for some reason I stopped getting notification emails of replies...

Tons of really great advice in here, so thank you all a ton!

I've been out a couple times without the dinghy (it was keeping my mooring ball reserved), and it made a HUGE difference. This is great, but I'm probably not willing to hoist the dink up on deck unless it's a long passage. It does point to the weight & windage aft being important though, so now focused on the bits that are easier to remove - folding up bimini, moving the folding seats I often leave lashed onto the rail below, etc.

I've also learned a bit more about the currents here in the Chesapeake, and realized my most frustrating experiences have been against more current than I realized (the currents here switch ~3 hours after the tide switches, how weird is that?!)

I'm pretty well convinced that new sails will make a big difference, but haven't quite talked myself into spending that much yet - the cruising fund is limited since I quit my job, and that would cut 2-3 months off my cruising time before I have to work again...

Ditto for the folding prop - I'm sure it would help but I haven't talked myself into the money yet.

Lastly and probably most importantly, I'm realizing that there is much more to sail trim than I've played with so far. I grew up sailing a little dinghy around, but never raced, so my idea of sail trim has mostly been "sheet in just enough to stop luffing and go with it." I'll have to learn about all this jib car moving, luff tensioning, twist managing, and even standing rig adjusting. The bad news is that's a lot to learn and overwhelming. The good news is there's probably a ton of potential improvement available there as I figure it out.

I really want to get a racer on board to help me troubleshoot in real conditions, but no luck so far. If anybody's in/near Baltimore and wants to come out with me for a day...

[johnn33]

Hi to JebLost In Space
This youtube is by the Junior Offshore Group in the UK, and shows what can be done even if only two up. It includes set-up, and some tactics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTWP...ature=youtu.be

You will see a lot - all relevant, but perhaps not always applicable to your yacht. I hope you enjoy it.
John

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

I've also learned a bit more about the currents here in the Chesapeake, and realized my most frustrating experiences have been against more current than I realized (the currents here switch ~3 hours after the tide switches, how weird is that?!)

Not weird at all. Discussed at some length here: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...nt-233408.html